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The marriage of Maitland Hope Harkness to Mary Ellen Hartley posted on page 1 of this thread, showed her to be the daughter of James Hartley, a butcher.

The father of this child is described as a butcher on the baptism image on Ancestry:

Liverpool, England, Baptisms, 1813-1906
Name: Mary Ellen Hartley
Baptism Date: 9 May 1847
Parish: Liverpool, St Peter
Father's Name: James Hartley
Mother's Name: Ellen Hartley
Reference Number: 283 PET/2/37

Census 1911 posted on page 1 by Reggie, shows Louisa Harkness (nee warren) as born c1874 Ardwick.

This is a possibility:

Address: 3, Airey St, Ardwick County: Lancashire

WARREN, Charles Head Married M 43 1838 Lurryman Railway (Carter)Northenden, Cheshire
WARREN, Mary Wife Married F 48 1833 Gainbro, Lincolnshire
WARREN, John Son Single M 17 1864 Clerk Ardwick, Lancashire
WARREN, George Son Single M 15 1866 Cart Boy Ardwick, Lancashire
WAROEN, Elizabeth Daughter Married F 12 1869 Scholar
Salford, Lancashire
WARREN, Frank Son Single M 9 1872 Scholar Ardwick, Lancashire
WARREN, Louisa Daughter Single F 7 1874 Scholar
Ardwick, Lancashire<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
WARREN, Charles Son Single M 5 1876 Scholar
Ardwick, Lancashire
WARREN, Sarah Mother Widow F 72 1809 Annuitant
Baguley, Cheshire

Also:


Forenames: Thomas Ramsey
Surname: Harkness
Sex: Male
Christening Year: 1874
Christening Date: 12 Jul 1874
Date of Birth:
Place of Birth:
Father's Forenames: Naithanel (Maitland on the actual image)
Father's Surname: Harkness
Mother's Forename: Mary Ellen
Mother's Surname:
Record Group: Part 1 - 43
Record Number: 160
Parish: St. Mary
City or Town: Birkenhead
County: Cheshire
Record source: Diocese of Chester parish registers of baptisms 1538-1910
Data provider: Cheshire Archives and Local Studies

Going back a bit, not sure if this baptism for Louie was posted previously or not.

Manchester, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1915

Name: Louie Warren<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Baptism Date: 24 May 1911
Parish: Bradford, St Aidan
Parish as it Appears: Manchester, St Aidan
Father's Name: Thomas Ramsey Harkness<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Mother's Name: Louie Harkness<<<<<<<<<<<<
Reference Number: GB127.M190/2/1/2

Father a policeman. Address 6, Police Quarters.

Name: James McTurk Harkness
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1813
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1890
Age at Death: 77
Registration district: Birkenhead
Inferred County: Cheshire
Volume: 8a
Page: 297

Probate:
Name: James Mcturc Harkness
Probate Date: 18 Sep 1890
Death Date: 21 May 1890
Death Place: Cheshire, England
Registry: Principal Registry

Will proven by son Malcolm Harkness joiner and builder one of the executors.

Marriage for James's son James Nivison Harkness, showing his father had a middle name - remember Elspha Nivison and John Harkeness's sons James and Thomas had middle name McTurk, which hadn't shown up in earlier English records?

Name: James Nivison Harkness
Birth Year: abt 1855
Age: 30
Marriage Date: 18 Sep 1885
Parish: Fairfield, St John the Divine
Spouse's Name: Sarah Elizbeth Maxwell Newton
Father's Name: James Mczerk Harkness<<<<<<<<<<<
Spouse Father's Name: James Newton
Reference Number: 283 DIV/3/2

Mczerk looks like McTurk on the image itself.


Births Dec 1854 Harkness James Nivison Wirral 8a 377


Census1861:

Address: 175, Willington Terrace, Birkenhead County: Cheshire

HARKNESS, Jas Head Married M 49 1812 Builder Scotland<<<<<<<
HARKNESS, Sarah Wife Married F 44 1817 Scotland
HARKNESS, Malck Son Unmarried M 19 1842 Joiner Birkenhead, Cheshire
HARKNESS, Keyne Son M 16 1845 Clerk Birkenhead, Cheshire
HARKNESS, Wellwood Son M 12 1849 Scholar Birkenhead, Cheshire
HARKNESS, Jas Son M 6 1855 Scholar Birkenhead, Cheshire<<<<

YESS!!!!

Thomas's son was also known as John Nivison Harkness:

Name: John Nevison Harkness
Birth Year: abt 1843
Age: 27
Marriage Date: 8 Apr 1870
Parish: Bevington, St Alban
Spouse's Name: Martha Gill
Father's Name: Thomas Harkness
Spouse Father's Name: William Gill
Reference Number: 283 ALB/3/2

Father Thomas Harkness is a joiner, and one witness is Maitland Hope Harkness.

Looks like his cousin,the other John Nivison Harkeness, married the previous year:

Marriages Sep 1869
GAUDIE Maggie Hotton Liverpool 8b 474 <<<<<<<
Harkness John Nivision Liverpool 8b 474 <<<<<<<
Hesketh Mary Catherine Liverpool 8b 474
SMITH James Liverpool 8b 474

(am basing the bride's identity on this probate record)

Name: John Nivison Harkness
Probate Date: 20 Nov 1903
Death Date: 5 Nov 1903
Death Place: Cheshire, England
Registry: Cheshire, England

Admin (Chester) to Maggie Harkness, widow. Effects £157 7s 8d.

Name: John Nivison Harkness
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1903
Age at Death: 64
Registration district: Birkenhead
Inferred County: Cheshire
Volume: 8a
Page: 334

ANOTHER LINK????

Thomas Harkness was living with James Harkness in 1841, both being joiners from Scotland.

I have posted i think there's a chance they are the offspring of John Harkness and Elspa Nivison.

I noticed on the 1851 census that Thomas and Elizabeth had a son called John N Harkness, and wondered if the N could stand for Nivison.

Now I can't find a record that does that, at the moment, but I did find the following birth:

Births Jun 1839 Harkness John Nivison Wirral 19 320

and this record amongst others.

UK and Ireland, Masters and Mates Certificates, 1850-1927
Name: John Nivison Harkness
Estimated Age: 27
Birth Date: 1839
Birth Place: Birkenhead, Cheshire
Issue Date: 19 Sep 1866
Issue Port: Liverpool
Certificate Number: 83585

This would tie in with the 1841 census I posted earlier, where Thomas was living with James Harkness, and there is a two year old John Harkness :

Census 1841:

Address: Watson Street, Bidston, Birkenhead County: Cheshire

HARKNESS, James M 25 1816 Scotland<<<<<
HARKNESS, Susan F 20 1821 Scotland
HARKNESS, John M 2 1839 Cheshire<<<<<<<
HARKNESS, Thomas M 25 1816 Scotland<<<<<<
KIRKPATRICK, Jane F 10 1831 Scotland

James's son definitely has middle initial N in 1851:

Census 1851

Address: 15, Oak Street, Birkenhead County: Cheshire

HARKNESS, James Head Married M 38 1813 Master Joiner Scotland
HARKNESS, Sarah Wife Married F 34 1817 Joiners Wife Scotland
HARKNESS, J N Son M 11 1840 Scholar Birkenhead, Cheshire<<<<<
HARKNESS, Malcom Son M 9 1842 Scholar Birkenhead, Cheshire
HARKNESS, Raymond Son M 6 1845 Scholar Birkenhead, Cheshire
HARKNESS, Wellwood Son M 2 1849 Birkenhead, Cheshire

I realise this is circumstantial, but my gut feeling is that your Thomas Harkness and James Harkness are brothers, the offspring of John Harkness and Elspa Nivison,

Also another sibling?

Name: Robert Harkness
Gender: Male
Christening Date:
Christening Place: , PENPONT, DUMFRIES, SCOTLAND
Birth Date: 21 Jun 1809
Birthplace: , Penpont, Dumfries, Scotland
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: John Harkness
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Elspa Nivison
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11845-2
System Origin: Scotland-VR
GS Film number: 1067970
Reference ID: - 2:163WXF0

Census 1851:

Address: High Street, Annan County: Dumfriesshire

HARKNESS, Robert Head Married M 43 1808 Joiner (Master Employg 1 Man) Graitney, Dumfriesshire<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
HARKNESS, Janet Wife Married F 39 1812 Canonbie, Dumfriesshire
HARKNESS, William Son Unmarried M 15 1836 Joiner (App)
Annan, Dumfriesshire
HARKNESS, David Son M 13 1838 Scholar Annan, Dumfriesshire
HARKNESS, Elizabeth Daughter F 11 1840 Scholar
Annan, Dumfriesshire
HARKNESS, Thomas Son M 9 1842 Scholar Annan, Dumfriesshire
CARRUTHERS, Agnes Daughter F 7 1844 Scholar
Annan, Dumfriesshire
CARRUTHERS, Margaret Daughter F 4 1847 Annan, Dumfriesshire
CARRUTHERS, Andrew Son M 2 1849
Annan, Dumfriesshire
RODDEN, Robert Aprentice Unmarried M 20 1831 Joiner (App)
England

EDIT: Is this another baptism record for the same chap?

Name: Robert Harkness
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 20 Jun 1809
Christening Place: , GLENCAIRN, DUMFRIES, SCOTLAND
Birth Date: 15 Jun 1809
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: John Harkness
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Euphemia Nivison
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11826-2
System Origin: Scotland-VR
GS Film number: 1067962
Reference ID: 2:16223Q0

One has Penpont, the other Glencairn as birth/baptism place. Mother has same maiden name.

Just to add,

John and Elspa had two children named John, presumably the first one died young.

Name: John Harkness
Gender: Male
Christening Date:
Christening Place: , PENPONT, DUMFRIES, SCOTLAND
Birth Date: 09 Mar 1804
Birthplace: , Penpont, Dumfries, Scotland
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: John Harkness
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Elspa Nivison
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11845-2
System Origin: Scotland-VR
GS Film number: 1067970
Reference ID: - 2:163WXCK

I think this is John in census 1841, with age rounded down to nearest 5 years. NOTE HIS OCCUPATION.

Address: Penpont Village, Penpont Village, Penpont County: Dumfriesshire

HARKNESS, John M 35 1806 Joiner Dumfriesshire<<<<<<<
HARKNESS, Agness F 40 1801 Dumfriesshire
HARKNESS, John M 15 1826 Joiner Ap Dumfriesshire
KERR, Archbald M 20 1821 Joiner J Dumfriesshire

Census 1851:

Address: Village, Village, Penpont County: Dumfriesshire

HARKNESS, John Head Married M 46 1805 Joiner Glencairn, Dumfries<<<<<<
HARKNESS, Agness Wife Married F 50 1801 Closeburn, Dumfries

This might be REALLY reaching!

There is a James Harkness, also a joiner living in Birkenhead from census 1841 onwards, also born Scotland. Thomas may have been living with him in 1841.

1841

Address: Watson Street, Bidston, Birkenhead County: Cheshire

HARKNESS, James M 25 1816 Scotland<<<<<
HARKNESS, Susan F 20 1821 Scotland
HARKNESS, John M 2 1839 Cheshire
HARKNESS, Thomas M 25 1816 Scotland<<<<
KIRKPATRICK, Jane F 10 1831 Scotland

Both James and Thomas are joiners on the census image

(Remember ages of over 15s were rounded down to nearest 5 years in 1841)

In 1851 James' birth year is c1813.

Address: Watson Street, Bidston, Birkenhead County: Cheshire

HARKNESS, James M 25 1816 Scotland
HARKNESS, Susan F 20 1821 Scotland
HARKNESS, John M 2 1839 Cheshire
HARKNESS, Thomas M 25 1816 Scotland
KIRKPATRICK, Jane F 10 1831 Scotland

I wondered about these two births:

Name: Thomas Mcturk Harkness
Gender: Male
Christening Date:
Christening Place: , PENPONT, DUMFRIES, SCOTLAND
Birth Date: 01 Mar 1815
Birthplace: , Penpont, Dumfries, Scotland
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: John Harkness
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Elspa Nivison
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11845-2
System Origin: Scotland-VR
GS Film number: 1067970
Reference ID: - 2:163WXHD

Name: James Mcturk Harkness
Gender: Male
Christening Date:
Christening Place: , PENPONT, DUMFRIES, SCOTLAND
Birth Date: 27 Feb 1813
Birthplace: , Penpont, Dumfries, Scotland
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: John Harkness
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Elspa Nivison
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11845-2
System Origin: Scotland-VR
GS Film number: 1067970
Reference ID: - 2:163WXG6

The dates are about right for both births, but the lack of a middle name for both men in English records is an issue. Just thought I'd put it out there to see what you think.

EDIT: Middle name MCTURK no longer an issue, see later posts.

John and Elspa/Elspeth had several children recorded on family search from 1793 onwards.

https://familysearch.org

England, Cheshire Parish Registers, 1538-2000

Name: Thomas Harkness<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 09 Apr 1842
Event Place: St Mary, Birkenhead, Cheshire, England
Gender: Male
Age (Formatted): 26y
Marital Status:
Father's Name: John Harkness<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Ramsay<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Father's Name: James Ramsay
Spouse's Mother's Name:
GS Film number: 2104175
Digital Folder Number: 004018955
Image Number: 00666

On the other hand, Elizabeth may have come down south to marry Thomas.

Remember Thomas RAMSEY/RAMSEY Harkness???

???

Marriages Jun 1842
DUNNE Joseph Wirral 19 225
DUTTON Jane Wirral 19 225
EVANS Thomas Wirrall 19 225
HARKNESS Thomas Wirrall 19 225 <<<<<<<
KELLY James Wirral 19 225
MEACOCK Susanna Wirral 19 225
MURPHY Sarah Wirral 19 225
RAMSAY Elizabeth Wirral 19 225<<<<<

EDIT:

L, pool Mercury Friday April 15th 1842

Last Saturday at St Mary’s Church Birkenhead Mr Thomas Harkness Joiner.
To Miss Elizabeth Ramsey both of Birkenhead.


Would also explain why no earlier children in census 1851.

Thankyou kucinta and wow more info than I could ever have hoped for.
Thankyou all.

A search on Scotland's People came up with two marriages, including the one I already posted. I don't have enough credits left to check either of them out.

1 18/09/1835 HARKNESS THOMAS ELIZABETH COATS/FR2816 (FR2816) M ABBEY /RENFREW 559/00 0080 0352


2 27/05/1838 HARKNESS THOMAS ELIZABETH MITCHEL/FR1960 (FR1960) M LANARK /LANARK 648/00 0060 0506


"Banns & marriages

Parish register entries may record the date(s) of the proclamation or the marriage date itself or both.

At best, you may find the following: date(s) of the proclamation of intended marriage and/or date of marriage, names of bride and groom and their parish of residence, sometimes the occupation of the groom and occasionally the name of the bride’s father. At worst, you may only find the names of the bride and groom recorded along with the fee paid in caution, or that marriages are not recorded at all between certain years (as in Alyth parish between July 1754 and February 1786)."

EDIT: I now think that neither of these marriage are relevant, as I believe Thomas and Elizabeth married in England. See later posts.

Family search has this marriage for a Thomas Harkness and Elizabeth in Scotland, but we don't have any indication from the census where in Scotland either Thomas or Elizabeth were born.


Name: Thomas Harkness
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Age:
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Mitchel
Spouse's Birth Date:
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age:
Event Date: 27 May 1838
Event Place: Lanark,Lanark,Scotland
Father's Name:
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Father's Name:
Spouse's Mother's Name:
Race:
Marital Status:
Previous Wife's Name:
Spouse's Race:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M11648-9
System Origin: Scotland-ODM

Census 1851:

RG number: HO107
Piece: 2175
Folio: 573
Page: 9
Reg. District: Wirral
Sub District: Birkenhead
Parish: Birkenhead
Enum. District: 1Q
Ecclesiastical District: Holy Trinity
City/Municipal Borough:

Address: 35, Morpeth Road, Birkenhead County: Cheshire

HARKNESS, Thomas Head Married M 36 1815 Joiner Scotland<<<<<<
HARKNESS, Elizabeth Wife Married F 36 1815 Scotland
HARKNESS, John N Son Unmarried M 7 1844 Scholar Birkenhead, Cheshire
HARKNESS, Isabella Daughter Unmarried F 4 1847 At Home Birkenhead, Cheshire
HARKNESS, Maitland Son Unmarried M 1 1850 At Home Birkenhead, Cheshire<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Following on from mgnv:

Liverpool, England, Marriages and Banns, 1813-1921

Name: Maitland Hope Harkness - time keeper
Birth Year: abt 1849
Age: 21
Marriage Date: 6 Jun 1870
Parish: Bevington, St Alban
Spouse's Name: Mary Ellen Hartley
Father's Name: Thomas Harkness - joiner
Spouse Father's Name: James Hartley - butcher
Reference Number: 283 ALB/3/2

Groom was a bachelor, bride a 22 yr old spinster.

Both bride and groom were of Bond Street.

Both were able to sign their names.

Witnesses were Martha Hartley, who made her mark, and James Bostock.

1881 England Census
Civil parish: Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 12 Crissey St
Registration district: Manchester
Sub-registration district: St George
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Piece: 4002 Folio: 100 Page Number: 86

Maitland H. Harkness 31 Birkenhead, Cheshire, England Head M Police Constable
Mary Ellen Harkness 32 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Wife M
Jessie Margt. Harkness 10 Birkenhead, Cheshire, England Daughter Scholar
Thos.R. Harkness 6 Birkenhead, Cheshire, England Son Scholar
Maitland Harkness 4 Birkenhead, Cheshire, England Son Scholar
Fredk. Harkness 2 Manchester Son

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1870
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
HARKNESS Maitland H HARTLEY Mary E Liverpool, St. Alban Liverpool 2017LP/2/138


Ancestry has a hit for:
Liverpool, England, Marriages and Banns, 1813-1921
Maitland Hope Harkness year dd mm year city Mary Ellen Hartley name surname

**** BUT I DON'T HAVE A SUB ****.

[I presume St Alban was in the Vauxhall/Bevington Rd area, so abt 2km NNE of the Liver Bldg]

1861 England Census
about Sarah Foster
Name: Sarah Foster
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John Foster
Gender: Female
Where born: Penketh, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Great Budworth
Ecclesiastical parish: Budworth
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Runcorn
Sub-registration district: Budworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 38
Piece: 2595
Folio: 76
Page Number: 6
Household Members: Name Age
John Foster 28
Sarah Foster 27
John Foster 7
Thomas Foster 6
Sarah A Foster 4
Magaret Foster