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That was on my 57th birthday at the Indian restaurant down the road! :-)

Well...(she obviously preferred Florence!)

At least you have facts from Certs. now, and looking pleased with yourself in new 'photo' at the result!, lol.

Chris :)

I now - finally - have the death of Florence Ellen - mistranscribed big time - she was only 24!! And she did die of peritonitis.

So Hannah became Florence May...goodness knows why...

My Florence (Ellen) was illegitimate. As was - I suspect her brother. My cousin believes that Eliza - her great grandmother - was "with" a Mr Carter before she "married" Robert Jenkins.

No way of corroborating the Carter side...but she never married Robert although she lived as his wife for many years!

Ultimately - not my family - but it is these fascinating sideline mysteries that keep us all going lol!

Jude

Just another for the 'Mysteries' pile Jude...again, at least you've tried!.

Chris :)

Today the two birth certificates arrived (all four ordered same day, one arrives 2nd,two 4th and one to go :-S :-S :-S

Florence Ellen - illegitimate born 05 November 1884

Hannah daughter of Amos and Hannah - born 08 March 1885

Guess we'll never know why Hnnah morphed into Florence May.........

Jude

Oh...lol.

(one did exist, if relating anywhere to somebody!)


Births Jun 1905 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------
Close Florence May Bedwellty 11a 95


Deaths Dec 1906 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------
Close Florence May 1 Bedwellty 11a 63

Chris :)

Well one of the four certificates arrived today...and it is so illuminating that the other three are a waste of money!

It is the death of Florence Dobson

Under name and surname it says:

Florence (otherwise Hannah May) Dobson!

Informant was son born 1914

Jude

Yes Chris - me being lazy...not sure how to copy and paste from my new IPad!!! - have these and have come to same conclusions.

Curiosity got the better of me so I have sent for the births of Florence Ellen and Hannah and the deaths of Florence Dobson and Florence Close.

The one in 1909 (Florence Close) has been mistranscribed I think - they say she was 74 years old and born in 1834 ...I think it is 24 years old which ties in with my Florence dying of peritonitis.

But we shall see in a week or so's time :-)

Not seeing Florence M Birth around that time...

(if her below, looking at Marriage area!)


Deaths Dec 1960 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------
DOBSON Florence 75 Cardiff 8b 198


Marriages Jun 1908 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------
CLOSE Florence May Cardiff 11a 659
DOBSON Robert James Cardiff 11a 659

Chris :)


(below possibly the witness on above Marriage)

Births Dec 1889 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------------
Close Charlotte Louisa Newport, M. 11a 160


Marriages Jun 1908 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------------
CARLESS Thomas Newport M 11a 518
Close Charlotte Louisa Newport M. 11a 518
Mitchell Elizabeth Jane Newport, M. 11a 518
Radford William John Newport, M. 11a 518


1901 (Find My Past)
Amos Close Head Married Male 60 1841 General Labourer Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
Hannah Close Wife Married Female 53 1848 - Monmouthshire, Wales
George Close Son Single Male 29 1872 General Labourer Magor, Monmouthshire, Wales
Hannah Close Daughter Single Female 16 1885 General Servant (Domestic) Liswerry, Monmouthshire, Wales
Tom Close Son - Male 13 1888 - Liswerry, Monmouthshire, Wales
Charlotte L Close Daughter - Female 11 1890 - Liswerry, Monmouthshire, Wales
Street Jenkins Street
Parish Newport
County Monmouthshire
Municipal ward Maindee
Registration district Newport
Archive reference RG13
Piece number 4962
Folio 126
Page 25


1891 (Find My Past)
Amos Close Head Married Male 50 1841 Labourer Ensbury, Gloucestershire, England
Hannah Close Wife Married Female 43 1848 - Llangwm, Monmouthshire, Wales
George Close Son Single Male 18 1873 Labourer Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
Eliza Close Daughter Single Female 13 1878 - Bishpool, Monmouthshire, Wales
John Hy Close Son Single Male 10 1881 Scholar Liswerry, Monmouthshire, Wales
Edward C Close Son Single Male 8 1883 Scholar Liswerry, Monmouthshire, Wales
Hannah Close Daughter Single Female 6 1885 Scholar Liswerry, Monmouthshire, Wales
Tom Close Son Single Male 4 1887 - Christchurch, Monmouthshire, Wales
Charlotte Close Daughter Single Female 1 1890 - Christchurch, Monmouthshire, Wales
Street Abershaw Road
Town Newport
Parish Christchurch with Caerleon Ultra Pontem
City Newport
County Monmouthshire
Registration district Newport
Archive reference RG12
Piece number 4369
Folio 87
Page 8


1881 (Find My Past)
Amos Close Head Married Male 43 1838 Labourer Gloucestershire, England
Hannah Close Wife Married Female 32 1849 - Llangwm, Monmouthshire, Wales
George A Close Son Single Male 8 1873 - Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
William Close Son Single Male 6 1875 - St Brides, Monmouthshire, Wales
Mary Ann Close Daughter Single Female 5 1876 - Christchurch, Monmouthshire, Wales
Eliza Close Daughter Single Female 3 1878 - Christchurch, Monmouthshire, Wales
John Close Son Single Male 1 1880 - Christchurch, Monmouthshire, Wales
House name Liswerry Grocers Shop
Parish Christchurch
County Monmouthshire
Registration district Newport
Archive reference RG11
Piece number 5259
Folio 41
Page 22


1911 (Find My Past)
Norah Carless Daughter - Female 2 1909 Newport
Hannah Close Mother In Law Widow Female 64 1847 Wolverhampton
Thomas Carless Head Married Male 26 1885 Wolverhampton Ironworker Lysaghts Orb Iron Works Newport Mon
Charlotte Carless Wife Married Female 21 1890 Newport
Thomas Carless Son - Male 1 1910 Newport
Address 3 Jenkins Street Newport
Parish Newport
County Monmouthshire
Census reference RG14 PN 31997 RG 78 PN 1840 RD 587 SD 2 ED 38 SN 288


Deaths Dec 1965 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
CARLESS CHARLOTTE L 76 NEWPORT 8C 151


Deaths Mar 1908 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------
CLOSE Amos 64 Newport, M. 11a 188


Deaths Dec 1912 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------
CLOSE Hannah 63 Newport M 11a 253


Marriages Dec 1872 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------
CLOSE Amos Newport, M. 11a 341
THOMAS Hannah Newport M 11a 341


Monmouthshire Marriages Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s) AMOS (Bachelor. Labourer)
Last name(s) CLOSE
Birth year 1845
Marriage year 1872
Marriage day 7
Marriage month Oct
Place MAGOR
Spouse's first name(s) HANNAH (Spinster)
Spouse's last name THOMAS
Bride's age 23
Groom's age 27
Bride's father first name(s) Thomas (Labourer)
Bride's father's last name Thomas
Groom's father's first name(s) George (Labourer)
Groom's father's last name Close
Parish Magor
(wits. Edward Morgan, Margaret Thomas. Residence at Time, Lower Grange (him) Magor (her)

I am adding to this post albeit slightly different query.

I have been contacted by someone who believed Florence Close born 1884/5 to be her husband's great grandmother.

That Florence married Robert James Dobson. I have got a copy of the certificate and it shows her to be Florence May and her father to be Amos.
Amos was my Florence's uncle, the brother of her mother, Eliza.
But I don't have a daughter Florence. I do have a daughter Hannah born same year of 1885. I can't find Florence before marriage and 1911 census and I can't find Hannah after 1901.

My contact thought that her Florence's mother married a Jenkins (which matches my Florence) but my Florence died in 1909.

I have sent - on a whim - for births of Hannah and my Florence. And deaths of both Florences....

Meanwhile - any thoughts?



Jude

mgnv - that's interesting! Personally, I believe it was a "cover". She was only 16/17 when she married (although she declared to be 19) and was 5 months pregnant and abandoned by her husband shortly after the wedding. By 1891, she had had a child by George and was very pregnant with a second :-(

She didn't marry until after she had had another ten children by George, and only then after she had tried to establish her husband was dead.

It's an intriguing family but is very sad in its own way. He was obviously a pathological liar...he lied about his age at the marriage, he lied about his father being dead at the time of the marriage, in 1901 he lied about his marital status (I haven't found him in 1891 to see what he said then), he then lied again in 1911 when he was "married" to Louisa (since 1903)....

Jude

Jude - FYI, the term in-law used to have a wider scope. In addition to the modern usage, it used to include what we would now call step relations. E.g., sister-in-law, daughter-in-law,etc., could be what we would now call step-sister, step-daughter, etc..

Dear Rodney

THis is fantastic - thanks. I had assumed much of this - I will consume this this evening when hubby is having a nap before work :-)

However, if what you say is true, then there was some wholesale fibbing going on on the 1884 marriage...he gives his age as 21 years old - if you have the correct Thomas then he was only 18. The Thomas born Falfield in 1866, had a father called Robert who was still alive in 1891 yet on the 1884 certificate he is shown as deceased.

Jude

Hi,I am desended from Minnie Maria Close.Born 29-5-1867 Henbury Glos,died 13-10-1952 Wrington Som.1st marriage 26-3-1884 Clifton registry office to Thomas William Beames.Born 22-8-1866 Whitfield Falfield Glos,died 1933 Portsmouth Hamps.Minnie never devorced her first husband.Married when she was 4 to 5 months pregnant,deserted by Thomas before or about the time her son Thomas William Beames was born.Did not see or hear from him after that time.He had gone into Bristol & signed into the royal navy for 18 years.
Before her 2nd Marriage she made attempts to trace Thomas to no avail so presumed he was dead.2nd marriage 26 -7-1912 Bristol registry office to George Watkins ( Watkins his mother Dinah Watkins maiden name )Born 19-2-1861 Stapleton workhouse infirmary Glos,died 14-2-1950 Wrington Som.Minnie had 13 children in total.1 by Thomas,12 by George.They lived at Vimpennys lane Compton Greenfield & Blands Row Redwick Glos.Both places are still there today.Thomas never married Louisa because he was still married to Minnie.

marriage cert is here ....

him 21 years, his father declared as Robert deceased

So born 1863 ish. Only census results are for the Thomas W who ends up dying in Portsmouth in 1933. This is definitely NOT him - his father was also Robert but that Robert (wife Charlotte) is still alive in 1891 whereas he is deceased at the time of MY Thomas' wedding to Minnie Maria.

I confess I am completely at a loss. Thomas born 1863 does not appear to exist. The only Robert I find is still alive long after the wedding. The Thomas William who is the naval person did indeed have a father called Robert. In 1911 he is married to Louisa supposedly for 8 years but I can't find a wedding. Minnie Maria is widowed by 1911 but I can't find a death for a Thomas that fits. The one in Cardiff in 1906 is for someone who was born around 1846. His probate notice has his executor as Thomas William Beames but neither father nor presumably son match on occupations



Jude :-S :-S :-S

(now adding, FMP all ok!)

Last name:Jenkins
First Name:Robert
County:Monmouthshire
Place / Parish:Nash
Age:60
Burial Year:1913
Burial Month:Jun
Burial Day:15

Last name:Close
First Name:Florence
County:Monmouthshire
Place / Parish:Nash
Age:24
Burial Year:1909
Burial Month:Oct
Burial Day:31

Chris :)

Yes Chris think those are all correct. Florence Ellen died of peritonitis. My cousin has a picture of her, Eliza and Beatrice outside Larch Cottage

Jude

Burial
last name:Jenkins
First Name:Elizabeth
County:Monmouthshire
Place / Parish:Nash
Age:53
Burial Year:1917
Burial Month:Jan
Burial Day:30
Record source:Monmouthshire Burials - Transcripts
Data provider:Welsh Archive Services / Gwasanaethau Archifau Cymru

(also Robert Jenkins 1913, Bryngwyn Cottage, Nash Road)


Deaths Dec 1909 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
CLOSE Florence [7_]4 Newport, M. 11a 1[1_]0

(Burial for above, if relating, age 24, Larch Tree Cottage, Nash)

Chris :)

(not a lot of help, and FMP seems to be down too!)

edits (also below)

Baptism
Forenames:Beatrice Susannah
Surname:Jenkins
Baptism Year:1898
Baptism Month:Mar
Baptism Day:6
Place:Nash
County:Monmouthshire
Birth Year:
Birth Month:
Birth Day:
Fathers Forenames:Robert (Labourer)
Mothers Forenames:Eliza
Record source:Monmouthshire Baptisms - Transcripts
Data provider:Welsh Archive Services / Gwasanaethau
(address, Nash Road)


Births Jun 1890 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jenkins Beatrice Susanna Newport, M. 11a 174

OK I am still waiting for the marriage certificate and will post here once I know what it tells me about Thomas.

Meanwhile...a distraction.

Minnie's half-sister Eliza Close was my cousin's great grandmother. I have identified what I am fairly sure is her birth registration

Births Dec 1861 (>99%)
CLOSE Eliza Clifton 6a 138

and I have what I think is her death (although it is ElizaBETH and the age is a bit out) but it ties in with a death in Nash where they lived.

Name: Elizabeth Jenkins
Birth Date: abt 1864
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1917
Age at Death: 53
Registration District: Newport
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a Page: 247

I have all the censuses - including as posted earlier her being in two places at once in 1881 ;-)

In those 1881 censuses she is Eliza right age right POB in Christchurch Newport - a dairymaid and she is Elizabeth right POB but slightly older but crucially with her father and stepmother across the Severn in Henbury...but she is single in both censuses.

By 1891 this is her as wife to Robert

Name: Eliza Jenkins
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Robert Jenkins
Gender: Female
Where born: Gloucestershire, England
Civil Parish: Nash
Ecclesiastical parish: Nash
County/Island: Monmouthshire
Country: Wales
Street Address: View Image
Condition as to marriage: View Image
Education: View Image
Employment status: View Image
Occupation: View Image
Registration District: Newport
Sub-registration District: Caerleon
ED, institution, or vessel: 25
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4370
Folio: 86
Page Number: 3
Household Members:
Name Age
Robert Jenkins 43
Eliza Jenkins 27
Ann Jenkins 9
Beatrice Jenkins 1
James Close 8
Florence Close 6
William Ellis 28

Ann is daughter to the head as is Beatrice; James and Florence are stepchildren.
In 1911 they declare they have been married for 26 years.

But I cannot find a marriage.....

My cousin thinks she was married before Robert to a Carter....and I can't find a marriage for that either.

As James and Florence were registered as Close I reckon even if Mr Carter was their father he's not on the certificate and they weren't married. And I am not convinced that she and Robert were either.

So as I say - a slight distraction expecting fully for you to tell me I'm right and they can't possibly have married :-)

yeah thought of that too Mike lol :-)

I have seen the marriage and some of my cousin's relatives did come from Pontypool area.

working the death in 1906 angle...what if Thomas was much older than Minnie?

aagghh so frustrating!!

Will send for that marriage and hopefully it will at the very least give us a birth date for Thomas.