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Minnie Maria Close - Born Henbury Glos Update

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HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 24 May 2013 18:23

marriage cert is here ....

him 21 years, his father declared as Robert deceased

So born 1863 ish. Only census results are for the Thomas W who ends up dying in Portsmouth in 1933. This is definitely NOT him - his father was also Robert but that Robert (wife Charlotte) is still alive in 1891 whereas he is deceased at the time of MY Thomas' wedding to Minnie Maria.

I confess I am completely at a loss. Thomas born 1863 does not appear to exist. The only Robert I find is still alive long after the wedding. The Thomas William who is the naval person did indeed have a father called Robert. In 1911 he is married to Louisa supposedly for 8 years but I can't find a wedding. Minnie Maria is widowed by 1911 but I can't find a death for a Thomas that fits. The one in Cardiff in 1906 is for someone who was born around 1846. His probate notice has his executor as Thomas William Beames but neither father nor presumably son match on occupations



Jude :-S :-S :-S

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 22 May 2013 07:46

(now adding, FMP all ok!)

Last name:Jenkins
First Name:Robert
County:Monmouthshire
Place / Parish:Nash
Age:60
Burial Year:1913
Burial Month:Jun
Burial Day:15

Last name:Close
First Name:Florence
County:Monmouthshire
Place / Parish:Nash
Age:24
Burial Year:1909
Burial Month:Oct
Burial Day:31

Chris :)

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 22 May 2013 06:55

Yes Chris think those are all correct. Florence Ellen died of peritonitis. My cousin has a picture of her, Eliza and Beatrice outside Larch Cottage

Jude

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 21 May 2013 21:23

Burial
last name:Jenkins
First Name:Elizabeth
County:Monmouthshire
Place / Parish:Nash
Age:53
Burial Year:1917
Burial Month:Jan
Burial Day:30
Record source:Monmouthshire Burials - Transcripts
Data provider:Welsh Archive Services / Gwasanaethau Archifau Cymru

(also Robert Jenkins 1913, Bryngwyn Cottage, Nash Road)


Deaths Dec 1909 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
CLOSE Florence [7_]4 Newport, M. 11a 1[1_]0

(Burial for above, if relating, age 24, Larch Tree Cottage, Nash)

Chris :)

(not a lot of help, and FMP seems to be down too!)

edits (also below)

Baptism
Forenames:Beatrice Susannah
Surname:Jenkins
Baptism Year:1898
Baptism Month:Mar
Baptism Day:6
Place:Nash
County:Monmouthshire
Birth Year:
Birth Month:
Birth Day:
Fathers Forenames:Robert (Labourer)
Mothers Forenames:Eliza
Record source:Monmouthshire Baptisms - Transcripts
Data provider:Welsh Archive Services / Gwasanaethau
(address, Nash Road)


Births Jun 1890 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jenkins Beatrice Susanna Newport, M. 11a 174

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 21 May 2013 19:04

OK I am still waiting for the marriage certificate and will post here once I know what it tells me about Thomas.

Meanwhile...a distraction.

Minnie's half-sister Eliza Close was my cousin's great grandmother. I have identified what I am fairly sure is her birth registration

Births Dec 1861 (>99%)
CLOSE Eliza Clifton 6a 138

and I have what I think is her death (although it is ElizaBETH and the age is a bit out) but it ties in with a death in Nash where they lived.

Name: Elizabeth Jenkins
Birth Date: abt 1864
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1917
Age at Death: 53
Registration District: Newport
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a Page: 247

I have all the censuses - including as posted earlier her being in two places at once in 1881 ;-)

In those 1881 censuses she is Eliza right age right POB in Christchurch Newport - a dairymaid and she is Elizabeth right POB but slightly older but crucially with her father and stepmother across the Severn in Henbury...but she is single in both censuses.

By 1891 this is her as wife to Robert

Name: Eliza Jenkins
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Robert Jenkins
Gender: Female
Where born: Gloucestershire, England
Civil Parish: Nash
Ecclesiastical parish: Nash
County/Island: Monmouthshire
Country: Wales
Street Address: View Image
Condition as to marriage: View Image
Education: View Image
Employment status: View Image
Occupation: View Image
Registration District: Newport
Sub-registration District: Caerleon
ED, institution, or vessel: 25
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4370
Folio: 86
Page Number: 3
Household Members:
Name Age
Robert Jenkins 43
Eliza Jenkins 27
Ann Jenkins 9
Beatrice Jenkins 1
James Close 8
Florence Close 6
William Ellis 28

Ann is daughter to the head as is Beatrice; James and Florence are stepchildren.
In 1911 they declare they have been married for 26 years.

But I cannot find a marriage.....

My cousin thinks she was married before Robert to a Carter....and I can't find a marriage for that either.

As James and Florence were registered as Close I reckon even if Mr Carter was their father he's not on the certificate and they weren't married. And I am not convinced that she and Robert were either.

So as I say - a slight distraction expecting fully for you to tell me I'm right and they can't possibly have married :-)

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 16 May 2013 06:33

yeah thought of that too Mike lol :-)

I have seen the marriage and some of my cousin's relatives did come from Pontypool area.

working the death in 1906 angle...what if Thomas was much older than Minnie?

aagghh so frustrating!!

Will send for that marriage and hopefully it will at the very least give us a birth date for Thomas.

Mike *

Mike * Report 15 May 2013 21:09

Far flung theory , could be total off the wall

What if George's father and Thomas's mother married ?


Found this and just made me wonder
( possibly not this marriage but a similar one ??

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Mar 1878

Beams Elizabeth - Pontypool 11a 144a
Watkins David - Pontypool 11a 144a


HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 15 May 2013 21:02

Dear All - I think my guess at Thomas' birth is the red herring. I think that birth in Thornbury is our Royal Naval guy and I don't think he has anything to do with Minnie Maria.

So...I'll send for the marriage cert as soon as I can and will post results then :-)

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 15 May 2013 20:59

But Mike ...they married in 1894 so IF that was the correct Thomas then he should have had married status in 1901????

Aaaghhh roll on pay-day I am going to have to invest in two birth certificates and maybe Minnie's first marriage to ease my curiosity :-)

Mike *

Mike * Report 15 May 2013 20:55

1871

Thomas W Beams
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Robert Beams
Mother's Name: Charlotte Beams
Gender: Male
Where born: Whitfield, Gloucestershire, England
Civil parish: Thornbury
Ecclesiastical parish: Falfield
Town: Falfield
County/Island: Gloucestershire


Robert Beams 28
Charlotte Beams 26
Mary Ann Beams 6
Thomas W Beams 4
Ellen L Beams 1

Mike *

Mike * Report 15 May 2013 20:52







Thomas Beames

Birth 15 Aug 1866 in Thornbury, Gloucestershire, , England
Death Mar 1933 in Portsmouth, Hampshire, England

---------------------------------------------------------

1901 - Thomas is recorded as single aboard ship

Thomas Beames
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation: Crew
Gender: Male
Where born: Falfield, Gloucestershire, England

Civil parish: Vessels
Town: Portland
County/Island: Dorset



So maybe take "widow" with a pinch of salt ?

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 15 May 2013 20:40

Chris - I have discounted this one because he's alive in 1911 (and I suspect he's the one who dies in Portsmouth in 1933)...unless of course she wasn't REALLY a widow :-)

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 15 May 2013 20:39

Yes that's the enigma census Mike....Minnie was married to Thomas Beames. So the ONLY way she could be George's sister-in-law is if Thomas was George's brother or probably half-brother.My guess is that George was illegitimate and that his grandmother was Margaret Watkins born Rowdan Glos., Which of the Watkins daughters was his mother is open to debate...I have an 1871 census that I think is him. There is another grandson - Henry Ball - who I think is Alice Watkins' daughet from her marriage to a Ball...So in same census is a Dinah...but is she his mother????

If you guys can't second guess me...then I might just get the birth certs of George and Thomas - it may be worth £18.50 to be a salve!

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 15 May 2013 20:38

Births Sep 1866 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------
BEAMS Thomas W Thornbury 6a 172


Royal Navy Registers of Seamen's Services.
Name Beames, Thomas Willm
Official Number: 150084
Place of Birth: Falfield Thornbury
Date of Birth: 22 August 1866

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/royal-naval-seamen.htm

(saw above, if fitting anywhere!)

Chris :)

edits (he could below)

Deaths Mar 1933 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Beames Thomas W 66 Portsmouth 2b 912

Mike *

Mike * Report 15 May 2013 20:31

Just to clarify..

1891- Number 26 ( looks like Tinpenny's Lane)

George Close 69
Hester Close 64 - wife
Henry Close 35 - son
William Beames 7 - grandson
--------------------------------------------

Number 27 - away from home
--------------------------------------

Number 28

George Watkins - single
Minnie Beames- sister in law
Fanny Beames - niece
Godfrey Beames - nephew



So Minnie could have been married to George's brother or maybe half brother

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 15 May 2013 20:27

mmm Ann...not sure about Alice. I don't have her in the tree...and she wasn't with George and Hester in 1881

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 15 May 2013 20:23

Yes Mike - without wishing "to believe" everything on Ancestry I am fairly comfortable that Charlotte died in 1864, George remarried in 1865 and Minnie was their only child.

The interesting thing about Eliza - and I digress - is that I have found her in two different places in 1881 - and I'm fairly sure it is her in both cases!!!!

AnnCardiff

AnnCardiff Report 15 May 2013 20:21

?????????????


Alice Close, "England Marriages, 1538–1973 "

Name: Oliver Fred Lester
Birth Date: 1873
Birthplace:
Age: 23
Spouse's Name: Alice Close
Spouse's Birth Date: 1869
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age: 27
Event Date: 1896
Event Place: St. Matthew Moorfields, Bristol, Gloucester, England
Father's Name: Mark Lester
Spouse's Father's Name: George Close
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M17255-2
System Origin: England-VR
GS Film number: 1595697
Reference ID: 2:1DWD10G

Mike *

Mike * Report 15 May 2013 20:21

1861

George Close 38 -Westbury, Gloucestershire
Charlott Close 40 - Hallen, Gloucestershire
Ann Close 13
George Close 11
William Close 9
Henry Close 7
Harriet Close 5
Edward Close 2

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 15 May 2013 20:20

Yeah Mike I picked this up off Ancestry - I have emailed the original poster to ask if they know anything more. To the outsider - maybe the cynical outsider :-) - it would seem that although she married Thomas Beames he may not have fathered many of the children! Especially as the first male child born between 1891 and 1901 was named George Wilfred Watkins Beames!!!!

Yes Ann that's her.

I think I know everything there is to be known about her..it's her husbands who are the enigma. They must be brothers/half brothers if that 1891 census is to be believed