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Sorry Kucinta, yes you are right Roberts son !!
John

Thanks Mary, I think Charles went off to South Africa and Dorothy stayed here and formed an association with Frank, Yes the newspaper report was a little upsetting I suppose when you look at the resulting children its easy to see why some of them found marriage difficult this is from relatives I have spoken to following their childhood upbringing, I will look at Dorothy and let you know what happened
John

It looks like it was possibly Robert's son (ie John Catliff's brother? Edward's uncle?) , rather than Robert who married Ann Hastings.


Name: William Catliff widower tobacconist<<<<<<<<
Age: Full Age
Spouse Name: Ann Rayner Woodhouse Hastings spinster
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 2 Jan 1860
Parish: St Giles without Cripplegate
Borough: City of London
Father Name: Robert Catliff- deceased shoemaker<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Spouse Father Name: David Hastings
Register Type: Parish Register

Certainly a fascinating family though!

The Morford family is another enigma.

Dorothy Violet Morford 1883 - 1920 married J/F/M 1902 to Charles Henry Anson in Lewisham.Charles was the son of a minister.

Did he die the she married Frank Catliff?? he was born 1877 died 1913 in Kent.
I can't see a remarriage for her?

When Frank died he left probate to Dorothy Violet Anson widow!! but whose widow.

You have a very complex ancestry John.

The newspaper report on child cruelty was a bit disturbing.

Maryb.

Mary, that is a good question!! waiting to see Ethel Leonora`s birth cert where I am told Leonora Agnes signed it
Kucinta, I have Edward Snr Marriage cert for his second marriage to Clara Louisa Carr and he states he is a widower.
Kucinta you will love this Robert (b) 1806 you just mentioned his second marriage was to Ann Hastings, after he died Ann Now Catliff went to Russia and was a governess to the children of the Szar`s I have letters written to her brother from 1894-1900 but she said in her time in Russia she had seen Alexander 11,111, Nicholas 11, I have never yet found out if she died there or got out alive, but from her letters she was well respected
My feeling Edward Snr may have gone back to Calcutta and perhaps died there when he left Clara Louisa,
A lot of my original Info came from a professional researcher who had done the Morford family tree, it has Edward marrying Isabella and having Ellie in 1867 in Calcutta, no mention of Edward William the first live born and you have found the petition for divorce due to cruelty I did open these papers at Kew some years ago. I hope I have answered some of the questions
John :-)

You never know what's going to turn up once you start innocently researching an ancestor!

I wonder why Edward and Agnes say they had no children on 1911 census!!

Maryb.

Many thanks again for the help, on talking to Argyll Gran, and you people who have helped me I am in touch with My Aunty Ethel Leonora (Thompson`s), niece who I can remember seeing in a pram when I was a youngster. it would appear at the moment that Ethel Leonora Thompson was the daughter of my Gran Leonora Agnes Thompson, I havn`t seen the birth cert yet but think it is signed by Gran in her married name L A Catliff but just to add spice to it we know that Grandfather had another family in Sussex at the time and it would appear that according to his wife now claiming to be a widow in the 1911 census he was alive and kicking in Wolverhampton
John :-0

Marriage of John Catliff's parents from Family search?:

England Marriages, 1538–1973

Name: Robert Catliff
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Age:
Spouse's Name: Mary Dunnell
Spouse's Birth Date:
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age:
Event Date: 02 Jan 1806
Event Place: Southwell,Nottingham,England
Father's Name:
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Father's Name:
Spouse's Mother's Name:
Race:
Marital Status:
Previous Wife's Name:
Spouse's Race:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M06116-1
System Origin: England-ODM
GS Film number: 503816, 504076, 504535
Reference ID:

EDIT: WE crossed again! Good night :-)

Looks good, Kucinta. Yes, we may be doing this for our own interest, not John's.
Think I'll tear myself away and head for bed

There's a tree on Ancestry which says John Catliff born 1809 Southwell married Anna (Hannah) Harvey at Bleasby 5th May 1829. Children : Mary 1831 Southwell: Edward 1833 Southwell; William 1833 - 1833 Southwell. (Doesn't list any spouses or children for Mary or Edward.)
John's parents: Robert Catliff b.1785 Southwell; Mary Dunnell b.1786. Married 2 Jan 1806, Southwell.
Six siblings for John.

Marriages from Pallots Index, otherwise no verification of anything.

John Catliff's baptism? Ties in with the 1834 death:

Name: John Catliff
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 26 Sep 1809
Christening Place: SOUTHWELL,NOTTINGHAM,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Robert Catliff
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Mary
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C06116-1
System Origin: England-ODM
GS Film number: 503816, 504076, 504535
Reference ID:

Possible father John Catliff died in time for Hannah to remarry to William Leeson, and Edward's father was named John on the marriage to Clara:


First name(s): John
Last name CATLIFF
Date of burial: 27 Sep 1834<<<<<<<<<<<
Age at death: 25
Calculated year of birth: 1809
Place of burial: South Well<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Dedication: St Mary (Minster)
County: Nottinghamshire

Edit: Also the gap in children between Edward Catliff aged 7 in the 1841 census you posted, and infant William Leeson aged 1, would tally with the death of Hannah's first husband John Catliff in 1834, and with her not remarrying until 1839, to William Leeson.

Year, surname and age are right here - but that's all.
(Son Arthur born Mar qr 1877)

Deaths Dec 1876 (>99%)
Catliff William 42 Hull 9d 123

Maybe his mum remarried? Ties in with your 1841 census.

Name: Hannah Catliff
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1839
Registration District: Southwell
Inferred County: Nottinghamshire
Volume Number: 15
Page Number: 953
Records on Page:
Name
Sarah Brown
Hannah Catliff<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Henry Fines
Patience Frecknall
William Leeson<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Elizabeth Penlington
Henry Ward

First marriage?

No direct link yet to Edward though:

Name: Hannah Harvey
Spouse: John Catliff
Marriage Date: 1829
Parish: Bleasby Nottinghamshire

(Pallots marriage index)

John may well have all this already though - it was young Ethel that triggered his curiosity.

No sign of his father or mother in 1841.


1841 England Census about Edward Catliff
Name: Edward Catliff
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Gender: Male
Where born: Nottinghamshire, England

Civil Parish: Southwell
Hundred: Thurgarton (Southwell Division)
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

View Image

Registration District: Southwell
Sub-registration District: Southwell
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 867
Book: 12
Folio: 51
Page Number: 13
Household Members:
Name Age
Wm Leeson 30
Hannah Leeson 30
Wm Leeson 1
Mary Catliff 10
Edward Catliff 7

No, that's Clara's age (26), Edward's was just 'full', and he was a widower, so quite feasible he might be some years older than his new bride.

Probably not the same person, then. The one who married Clara is about twelve years younger - unless he lied.

He calls himself a merchant when he married Clara Louisa Carr, and gives his father as John Catliff, gentleman.

Name: Edward Catliff
Age: Full Age
Spouse Name: Clara Louisa Carr
Spouse Age: 26
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 22 Aug 1872
Parish: St John's Wood St Mark
Borough: Westminster
Father Name: John Catliff
Spouse Father Name: Charles Carr
Register Type: Parish Register

First marriage to Isabella was at the catholic church of St Marys, Moorfields, Finsbury 21st Dec 1861, so no LMA record for the marriage to check father's name and Edwards's job description.

??


1851 England Census about Edward Cukife
Name: Edward Cukife
[Edward Catliff]
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relation: Servant
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Southwell, Nottinghamshire, England

Civil Parish: St Luke Old Street
Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability:

View Image

Registration District: St Luke
Sub-registration District: Finsbury
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 60
Piece: 1523
Folio: 272
Page Number: 14
Household Members:
Name Age
William Earvin 29
Elizabeth Earvin 32
William Earvin 6
Elizabeth Earvin 3
Christopher Earvin 58
Ann Mary Summer 25
Eliza I Volenhinsopp 19
Edward Cukife 17
Mary Ann Lane 20
Eliza Johnson 16
Sarah Ann Cullen 23
Fanny Blenkinroppe 17
Mary Knight 19
Ester Cox 2

Do we know when/where Edward senior was born?

???

1861 England Census about Edwd Catliff
Name: Edwd Catliff
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Gender: Male
Where born: Southwell, Nottinghamshire
[Nots, Southwell]

Civil Parish: St Peter Westcheap
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address: 3 Wood Street

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

View Image

Registration District: London City
Sub-registration District: London City North West
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 20
Piece: 223
Folio: 102
Page Number: 3
Household Members:
Name Age

Mary Ann Neave 66 - Housekeeper
Edwd Catliff 28 - warehouseman
Zebulon Barnes 59
Jessie Vincent 19
Walter Inglefield 20
George Stable 20
Albert Lanceston Lloyd 18
Valentine Watts 20
Charles Mervyn 19
Thomas Fagg 23
Phillip Turner 17
George Oliver 20
Eliza Baker 35
Caroline Betts 23
John Thomas Green 23

(The transcription on Ancestry erroneously includes people from other households, whom I've omitted here.)