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The Borthwicks

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Unknown

Unknown Report 4 Sep 2013 04:09

I have reached a brick wall with my ggg grandparents. David was born in Edinburgh. I have him on 1841 census aged 50 and a medicine vendor at 70 Hatton Gardens. In the 1851 census he is still 50 so he was born either 1791 or 1801. His wife is Eliza nee Hawley b. 1816. I have been unable to find a marriage for them.

In 1841 they have children Emily 5, Edward 4 and John 2 and Eliza'a mother Susan Hawley (Ind). Susan Hawley appears (I think I have the right one) on the 1851 and 1861 census in Holborn Union Workhouse. She died in 1868 in The Union, Richmond.

In 1851 census David and Eliza have added to their family with James 6, Clarence 3 and Diana (my gg grandmother) 4months. David professes to be a surgeon - non practising. After that I can find no census records. I have Diana's birth, marriage (in New Zealand) and death (in New Zealand) certificates.

I can find no passenger lists with their names on but figure that they emigrated around 1861 as Diana's death certificate dated 17/01/1886 states that she had lived in NZ 25 years. Diana married John Nelson on 2/03/1867 in Dunedin NZ.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. My 3rd cousin in Auckland has no further info either.

Thanks Jill

Reggie

Reggie Report 4 Sep 2013 09:36

Is this David?


Name: David Borthwick
Gender: Male
Burial Date: 13 Aug 1851
Burial Place: Saint Pancras, Middlesex, England
Death Date:
Death Place:
Age: 60
Birth Date: 1791
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: B03189-4
System Origin: England-EASy
GS Film number: 598280
Reference ID: vP90 p124 rn852

Unknown

Unknown Report 4 Sep 2013 10:03

Hi Reggie,
That looks promising. My info. had his death as 1880 but probably wrong. I will order a copy of certificate. I takes ages to get to NZ but will confirm if the correct one. I wonder if Eliza remarried?

Thanks Jill

Choccy

Choccy Report 4 Sep 2013 10:30


https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FS1W-R2V


New Zealand, Immigration Passenger Lists, 1855-1973

Name: Diana Borthwick

Event Type: Immigration

Event Date: 04 Jan 1856

Event Place: Canterbury, New Zealand

Gender:

Age: 4

Marital Status:

Nationality:

Occupation:

Birth Year (Estimated): 1852

Shipping Company:

Ship Name: Isabella Hercus

Departure Port:

Departure Place:

Departure Date: 1855

Arrival Port:

Arrival Place: Canterbury

Digital Folder Number: 004407293

Image Number: 00006


travelling with Eliza Borthwick aged 35 and Clarence Borthwick aged 7


This is the image - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11592-57401-6?cc=1609792&wc=M9WV-ZG5:1939750203

Unknown

Unknown Report 4 Sep 2013 10:51

Thank you Choccy. I looked everywhere for that info. I feel as if I'm getting somewhere now. It looks like they rounded her age down. I think she would have been 39.
Thanks

Jill

MaureeninNY

MaureeninNY Report 4 Sep 2013 11:41

The death for David Borthwick as found by Reggie is also listed on Ancestry with an address of Denton's Bldgs. which is where the family were in 1851,

Maureen

Unknown

Unknown Report 4 Sep 2013 11:46

Thanks Maureen

Dea

Dea Report 4 Sep 2013 12:05

I wonder if Eliza remarried?

There is this marriage of an Eliza Borthwick in NZ in 1856 ?

1856/1673 Eliza Borthwick Thomas Orland Evins

Dea x

Reggie

Reggie Report 4 Sep 2013 12:06


Name: Eliza Hawley
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 10 May 1816
Christening Place: SAINT MARY-ST MARYLEBONE ROAD,ST MARYLEBONE,LONDON,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 06 Apr 1816

Father's Name: Edward Hawley

Mother's Name: Susanna

Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C03524-6

Kucinta

Kucinta Report 4 Sep 2013 12:27

??

Possibly a bit early. On the other hand, with a much younger wife, he might have been a bit flexible with his age:

Name: David Borthwick
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 25 May 1787
Christening Place: SAINT CUTHBERTS, EDINBURGH, MIDLOTHIAN, SCOTLAND
Birth Date: 22 May 1787
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: James Borthwick
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Helen Howden
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11987-3
System Origin: Scotland-VR
GS Film number: 1066754
Reference ID: 2:17RJ7HD

Kucinta

Kucinta Report 4 Sep 2013 12:31

Marriage for James Borthwick and Helen Howden:

Name: James Borthwick
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Age:
Spouse's Name: Helen Howden
Spouse's Birth Date:
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age:
Event Date: 19 Nov 1781
Event Place: Edinburgh Parish,Edinburgh,Midlothian,Scotland
Father's Name:
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Father's Name: James Howden
Spouse's Mother's Name:
Race:
Marital Status:
Previous Wife's Name:
Spouse's Race:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M11985-6
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
GS Film number: 993527


From the free site:

https://familysearch.org/search

Unknown

Unknown Report 4 Sep 2013 22:51

What a great way to start my Thursday!!

Dea - yes that sounds correct. Diana got married in the house of Mrs Evins. I will need to get Eliza's marriage certificate to Thomas. Thanks.

Thanks for the christening record Reggie.

Kucinta you're a star. That birth of David Borthwick makes him the same age as his mother in law! I think he has some secrets. I have been wondering about the 6 year gap in the children's ages. (Between John and James) I wonder if they had different mothers? Maybe I'm getting carried away with the intrigue.

Thanks again everyone.

Jill

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 4 Sep 2013 23:23

Details of Eliza's remarriage:

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=DSC18570317.2.7&srpos=1&e=-------10--1----2eliza+borthwick--

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 4 Sep 2013 23:25

This clipping seems to confirm the passenger list that Choccy posted:

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=LT18560105.2.7.1&srpos=2&e=-------10--1----2eliza+borthwick--

Kucinta

Kucinta Report 5 Sep 2013 00:03

There's always the chance the baptism I found might not be your David though...

There are three marriages for a David Borthwick at St Cuthberts around the same time, and at least two of the couples go on to breed in Edinburgh, according to the records at family search. Any one, or none, of the three might be your chap marrying for the first time.


Name: David Borthwick
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Age:
Spouse's Name: Alexander Purdie
Spouse's Birth Date:
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age:
Event Date: 05 Jun 1813
Event Place: Saint Cuthberts,Edinburgh,Midlothian,Scotland
Father's Name:
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Father's Name: Alexander Purdie
Spouse's Mother's Name:
Race:
Marital Status:
Previous Wife's Name:
Spouse's Race:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M11988-3
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
GS Film number: 1066757
Reference ID:

Name: David Borthwick
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Age:
Spouse's Name: Helen Clark
Spouse's Birth Date:
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age:
Event Date: 15 Jun 1814
Event Place: Saint Cuthberts,Edinburgh,Midlothian,Scotland
Father's Name:
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Father's Name: Andrew Clark
Spouse's Mother's Name:
Race:
Marital Status:
Previous Wife's Name:
Spouse's Race:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M11988-3
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
GS Film number: 1066757

Name: David Borthwick
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Age:
Spouse's Name: Janet Dickson
Spouse's Birth Date:
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age:
Event Date: 17 Feb 1814
Event Place: Saint Cuthberts,Edinburgh,Midlothian,Scotland
Father's Name:
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Father's Name: Dickson
Spouse's Mother's Name:
Race:
Marital Status:
Previous Wife's Name:
Spouse's Race:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M11988-3
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
GS Film number: 1066757

https://familysearch.org/search/

Unknown

Unknown Report 6 Sep 2013 03:20

mmm eeny meeny miney mo

Kucinta

Kucinta Report 6 Sep 2013 14:39

Sorry..... :-(

The baptism might well still be your chap, it's not a bad fit - but the various marriages do muddy the waters a bit.

Given David's age compared to Eliza's, it wouldn't be surprising if he had been married a time or two before her.

I did find the marriage of a Drusilla Borthwick to Samuel Arthur Begland in 1838, St Bartholomew the Great, City of London, and the 1841 census gave her birthplace as Scotland c1821, (presumably rounded down to the nearest 5 yrs, as per the instructions for over 15s in the 1841 census).

Needless to say I can't find her birth in Scotland on familysearch.

Her father's name was given as David Borthwick, and I did wonder if she was 'your' David's child by a previous marriage.

However the occupation of the David Borthwick on the marriage register was giving as 'dancing master', which doesn't seem to tally with your chap's medical background, so that probably rules her out.

Unknown

Unknown Report 6 Sep 2013 21:23

Thanks Kucinta.

There is a family story that David Borthwick was married five times! This was from the same source as his incorrect death date so who knows? 5 seems an awful lot even for him unless they all died in childbirth or something. I have ordered his death cert but it won't be sent til 27th of this month so won't be til next month I get it.

Davids daughter Emily (14 in the 1851 census) has a story in the family that she was in Africa at a time when the Zulus were being rather unfriendly but that may have been a porky too. I expect she was married by then and not under Borthwick.

Ho hum

Jill

Unknown

Unknown Report 10 Sep 2013 10:24

I have just received the marriage printout of Eliza Borthwick and Thomas Evins. It has her age as 35 when she would really have been 40, he was 39 and a mariner. Maybe he was part of the crew on the Isabella Hercus on the voyage out. I can't find any crew list for that trip in 1855/56 so will just assume.

Jill

Kucinta

Kucinta Report 10 Sep 2013 10:49

From the Lyttelton Times Saturday January 5, 1856.

The 'Isabella Hercus', Captain Sewell, arrived in port early yesterday morning with 116 passengers for the province. Seven cabin passengers, and twenty one assisted emigrants for Otago. This vessel left London on September 18 1855. There were two births, and eight deaths during the voyage, four adults and four infants. Fever of a low character appears to have prevailed on board during considerate portion of the passage. Ten convalescents were admitted into hospital immediately on the ships arrival. Port of Registry: Workington. She sailed for Port Chalmers Feb. 1 and on March 5 she departed from Port Chalmers for Shanghai in ballast.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nzbound/isabella_hercus.htm

Sadly no crew list.