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James Black born 1792 Scotland

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

william

william Report 23 Sep 2013 16:34

I'm wondering if anyone can help .James BLack married Helen Robertson and had three children that I know of Isabella 1820 John 1827 Richard 1837. This is confirmed with 1851 census Cowan st KIrkcaldy.What I'm trying to find out is was there more. children in this family The reason I think there might be the 1841 census for HIgh st KIrkcaldy shows Helen Black with more than the above three children .James Black does not show in these census records I put that down to the fact he was serving in the merchant navy and would be away .Regards Billy .

Stuart

Stuart Report 23 Sep 2013 17:11

Are these the 2 census you are comparing? 1841 census does not normally show relationships, but on the face of it, a Helen Black would appear to be recorded with her children. I cannot find any information on Scotland's people re Baptisms for this family to confirm, nor any info on Family Search. Marriage or death certificates might show parents names if you can chase those children"s names through using the Scotlands People pay to view site.

1851 census transcription details for: Cowan Street, Kirkcaldy

National Archive Reference:
RG number:
Piece: 442
Folio: 310
Page: 15
Reg. District: Kirkcaldy
Sub District:
Parish: Kirkcaldy
Enum. District: 10
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Cowan Street, Kirkcaldy
County: Fife
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
HUTCHESON, Robert Head Married M 27 1824 LabourerKirkcaldy, Fifeshire
HUTCHESON, Isabella Wife Married F 31 1820 Abbotshall, Fifeshire
HUTCHESON, Ann Daughter Unmarried F 10 1841 Scholar Kirkcaldy, Fifeshire
HUTCHESON, Janet Daughter F 8 1843 Scholar Kirkcaldy, Fifeshire
HUTCHESON, Robert Son M 5 1846 Scholar Kirkcaldy, Fifeshire
BLACK, Helen Mother-In-Law Widow F 59 1792 Winder Dumferlimine, Fifeshire
BLACK, Richard Brother-In-Law Unmarried M 14 1837 Errand Boy Abbotshall, Fifeshire
BLACK, John Brother-In-Law Unmarried M 24 1827 Labourer Abbotshall, Fifeshire

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1841 census transcription details for: Linktown, High Street, Abbotshall

National Archive Reference:
RG number:
Piece: 399
Book/Folio: 7
Page: 7
Reg. District:
Sub District:
Parish: Abbotshall
Enum. District:
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Linktown, High Street, Abbotshall
County: Fife
Name Relation Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
HAXTON, Alexr M 60 1781 Labourer Fife
HAXTON, Christian F 45 1796 Fife
BLACK, Hellen F 45 1796 Fife
BLACK, Elizh F 20 1821 Fife
BLACK, Ann F 20 1821 Fife
BLACK, John M 16 1825 Fife
BLACK, Wm M 14 1827 Fife
BLACK, Robt M 7 1834 Fife
BLACK, Richd M 4 1837 Fife
BLACK, Ann F 0 (3 MO) 1841 Fife
RAMSAY, Isabella F 0 (3 MO) 1841 Fife

and others

william

william Report 23 Sep 2013 18:08

Thanks Stuart .I checked Scotlands people for records but could only find records for Isabella .John. Richard. What I did find out 1841 census shows Ann Black age 3 months she is daughter of Isabella Black father showing as a Mr Dickson going with that it would appear that Helen Black is same person in both census records. Would you think Ann Black was a twin as 1841 census shows Isabella Ramsay also aged 3 months. Regards Billy

BeverleyW

BeverleyW Report 23 Sep 2013 19:13

Surely if they were twins they would have the same surname?

Where did you find the marriage of James Black and Helen Robertson, please?

william

william Report 23 Sep 2013 19:25

I just find it strange 2 childre.n both age 3 months in same family .I have not found marriage Cert for James and Helen I got their details from son Richard.s marriage Cert .Regards Billy

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 23 Sep 2013 19:25

I can't see any marriageson ScotlandsPeople between a James Black and a Helen Robertson anywhere in Scotland 1805-1820.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 23 Sep 2013 19:29

Searching with husband's surname Black, and wife's first name Helen, in Dunfermline (per 1851 census above), this is the only marriage 1805-20:

26/06/1818 BLACK ROBERT
HELEN SCOTT/FR3369 (FR3369) M DUNFERMLINE /FIFE
424/00 0100 0665

In fact, that's the only one in the whole of Fife 1805-20.


ADDED:
OK, just noticed your last post, Billy.

BeverleyW

BeverleyW Report 23 Sep 2013 19:48

I can't see a Black/Robertson marriage anywhere either.....
Another question - is James' birth of 1792 just a guess?

william

william Report 23 Sep 2013 22:06

James black.s birth year 1792 was passed on to me by someone reserching the Hutchison family. Also told me that Robert Black Son of James and helen was born in Aberdeen..

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 23 Sep 2013 23:13

As we don't know where James Black was born - not necessarily Scotland - and it's such a common name - and we can't find a marriage record - we haven't much hope of verifying his birth date.

There were 263 James Black births registered in Scotland 1780-1800, with 31 in Fife alone

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 23 Sep 2013 23:21

This is the only Robert Black registered anywhere in Scotland 1830-40, with father James and mother Helen:

15/08/1840 BLACK ROBERT JAMES BLACK/HELEN MITCHELL M LETHNOT AND NAVAR /ANGUS 300/00 0020 0011

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 23 Sep 2013 23:30

Per ScotlandsPeople:

There is no Richard Black registered in Fife 1830-45.

Two Ann (or variation) Blacks registered in Fife 1839-41, but neither has the right parents.

Two Isabella Ramsays in Fife 1839-41:

03/04/1841 RAMSAY ISABELLA JAMES RAMSAY/MARY ANN MONTGOMERY FR1827 (FR1827) F DYSART /FIFE 426/00 0060 0411

06/04/1841 RAMSAY ISABELLA WILLIAM RAMSAY/ISABEL SKINNER F DYSART /FIFE 426/00 0060 0205

BeverleyW

BeverleyW Report 24 Sep 2013 07:45

It looks like the only hard facts we have about James are from Richard's marriage certificate.
Could you let us know ALL the information on it please.

william

william Report 24 Sep 2013 09:09

James black.s birth year 1792 was passed on to me by someone reserching the Hutchison family. Also told me that Robert Black Son of James and helen was born in Aberdeen..

william

william Report 24 Sep 2013 09:40

Thanks for everyone's help. The only info on RIchard.s marriage Cert Townhill Dunfermline 28th Dec 1880 to Georgina Rutherford shows James's Black and Helen Robertson both deceased as his parents . Checking back info that was passed on to me James death year 1852 Helen 1860. Regarding Ann Black born 1841 after her mother Isabella married Robert Hutchison1843 she was then known as Ann Hutchison. :-P

Eringobragh1916

Eringobragh1916 Report 24 Sep 2013 11:09

William....Double check James' death year ?? 1852...as the 1851 Census shows Helen Black already a widow......

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 24 Sep 2013 11:16

Helen's death:

1866 BLACK HELEN F 72 KIRKCALDY /FIFE 442/00 0039

Helen Black, widow of James Black, merchant seaman.
Died 2.00am, 20/02/1866 at Linktown, Abbotshall.
Parents' names not known.
Cause of death: Old age. Not certified.
Informant: James Black, son, New Town.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 24 Sep 2013 11:32

Assuming James died at home and not at sea or elsewhere - big assumption - there are 2 possible burial records:

14/11/1841 BLACK JAMES ----- M ABBOTSHALL /FIFE 399/00 0060 0236
James Black in the midl (sic) grave of his property, 5 feet deep [then a couple of words I can't read].

07/09/1847 BLACK JAMES ----- M ABBOTSHALL /FIFE 399/00 0070 0176
James Black in the north grave of his son's burying ground, 5 feet deep, aged 67 years.

Stuart

Stuart Report 24 Sep 2013 11:54

As Helen's marriage hasn't been found, nor would it appear the majority of baptisms, then there are no dates to work on. Isabella Ramsay could be the child of a daughter who married before the 1841 census or just the child next door being looked after. Baptism wasn't compulsory, so maybe the rest of the children weren't, or the records are not available for whatever reason.

It might be worth going back to the Hutcheson researcher and asking where they got their information from or if they have any further information

BeverleyW

BeverleyW Report 24 Sep 2013 11:59

I agree, you need to double check the info you already have and not just rely on what you have been told. The dates are suspect to say the least.