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Help with Knowles - Ashworth needed, thanks!

ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Alatck

Alatck Report 7 Feb 2014 21:17

Hi everyone

My name's Ali. I'm a new member and I would truly appreciate some help; I'm trying to trace my paternal great grandmother's maiden name. Her daughter was Phyllis Ashworth, who married my grandfather Thomas Knowles - he was a mechanic and I was told he owned a garage. Thomas and Phyllis lived in Halliwell, Bolton, at 3 Beatrice Road, where my dad Thomas Richard was born. I don't recall meeting Phyllis and have a very vague memory of seeing my grandfather once. Dad also had about 5 sisters but I've never met them so I'd be doubly chuffed if I could pin the sisters down too! Much thanks in advance. :-D

Marked As Answer Marked as Answered

Mike *

Mike * Report 7 Feb 2014 21:25



Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1932

KNOWLES Thomas- ASHWORTH Phyllis.
Bolton Register Office or Registrar Attended Bolton RO/228/82



Mike *

Mike * Report 7 Feb 2014 21:30

Is this your dad ?

Births Dec 1939
Knowles Thomas R- ( Mother Ashworth) Bolton 8c 674



Mike *

Mike * Report 7 Feb 2014 21:35

PM sent to you inbox with possible births of other children.

Mike *

Mike * Report 7 Feb 2014 21:35

Put these free websites in your favourites.


http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl


http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/


**** Welcome to the boards by the way.

Christina (Lancashire)

Christina (Lancashire) Report 7 Feb 2014 21:43

Hi Ali and welcome to the boards.

Do you have Phyllis' father's name and occupation from her marriage certificate?

Joseph

Joseph Report 7 Feb 2014 22:14

This is a possibility, but you need some certificates to be sure.

Baptism: 5 Mar 1907 Blackburn Road Congregational Church, Bolton
Phyllis Ashworth - [Child] of James Edwin Ashworth & Rhoda
Abode: 22 Tennis Street
Occupation: Labourer

1911 at 22 Tennis St Halliwell Bolton
ASHWORTH, James Edwin Head Married M 36 1875 Labourer Bolton

ASHWORTH, Rhoda Wife Married 6 years F 27 1884 Bolton
ASHWORTH, Elsie Daughter F 6 1905 Bolton
***ASHWORTH, Phyllis Daughter F 4 1907 Bolton
ASHWORTH, Rhoda Daughter F 2 1909 Bolton
ASHWORTH, Caleb Father Widower M 70 1841 Pensioner Police Force Bolton

Marriages Jun 1904
Ashworth James Edwin Bolton 8c 706
Banks Rhoda Bolton 8c 706

Deaths Jun 1912
Ashworth James E 37 Bolton 8c 440

Mel Fairy Godmother

Mel Fairy Godmother Report 8 Feb 2014 10:49


1891 England Census about Rhoda Banks
Name: Rhoda Banks
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: James Banks
Mother's Name: Catherine Banks
Gender: Female
Where born: Bolton, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Little Bolton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew
Town: Bolton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Registration District: Bolton
Sub-registration District: Little Bolton
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3116
Folio: 35
Page Number: 10
Household Members:
Name Age
James Banks 51 1840 Bolton Lancs COTTON SPINNER
Catherine Banks 52 1839 Bolton, Lancashire
Ethel Banks 19
Bertha Banks 17
Emma Banks 15
James Banks 13
Rhoda Banks 7


1901 England Census about Rhoda Banks
Name: Rhoda Banks**************single****
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884
Relation to Head: Boarder*************************
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Bolton, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Bolton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 12 Tennis St.

Occupation: COTTON CARD LOOM HAND

Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Eli Yates 25
Emma Yates 25
Rhoda Yates 1
Rhoda Banks 17

Cynthia

Cynthia Report 8 Feb 2014 13:07

I'll let Ali know that she has replies to her query. :-)

Alatck

Alatck Report 9 Feb 2014 15:19

Hi again folks. The web page froze while I was in the middle of replying to you all. Soz! Now where was I? Christina, Joseph, Mel - being a 'newbie' I don't want to jump the gun but I think - and it's a big think - that Phyllis's mother's maiden name may have been either Banks or Stevenson; I have access to another GR user's tree who's researching a different branch of the family and she has both surnames in her names list, so I need to know I'm on the right person before I order certificates. But thanks to you all for your input - and the lovely welcome.

One thing I have realised very quickly is that this can be extremely addictive. I reckon I'm going to have to change my broadband provision to unlimited judging from all the time I'm spending on this. Thank heaven for you lovely helpers! :-D

Mel Fairy Godmother

Mel Fairy Godmother Report 9 Feb 2014 16:16

Hi Ali,

Nice to see you got back to us.

Another possibility for another sibling to Phylis after the 1911 census.


England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915 about James E Ashworth
Name: James E Ashworth
Mother's Maiden Name: Banks*****************************
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1911
Registration District: Bolton
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: 722

Mel Fairy Godmother

Mel Fairy Godmother Report 9 Feb 2014 16:20

Oh dear!


England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915 about James E Ashworth
Name: James E Ashworth
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1911
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1912
Age at Death: 1*****************************************************
Registration District: Bolton
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: 418

Mel Fairy Godmother

Mel Fairy Godmother Report 9 Feb 2014 16:23


England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915 about Iris Ashworth
Name: Iris Ashworth
Mother's Maiden Name: Banks
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1914
Registration District: Bolton
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: 956

Another poss but different area but they may have moved.


England & Wales, Birth Index, 1916-2005 about Herbert Ashworth
Name: Herbert Ashworth
Mother's Maiden Surname: Banks*************************
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1916
Registration District: Haslingden
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume Number: 8e
Page Number: 188

Mel Fairy Godmother

Mel Fairy Godmother Report 9 Feb 2014 16:36


England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index, 1837-1915 about James Edwin Ashworth
Name: James Edwin Ashworth
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1904
Registration District: Bolton
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume Number: 8c
Page Number: 706
Records on Page:
Name
James Edwin Ashworth
Rhoda Banks

Alatck

Alatck Report 9 Feb 2014 17:13

Hi Mel Fairy Godmother, thanks for that, I've made a note.

I'm gonna be very busy :-D

But time for me to shut down for now I'm afraid; I'm back at work tomorrow so need to get sorted for that.

Thanks again to everyone who's helped so far and I hope everyone on GR had a lovely weekend and you all have a good week. Happy hunting!

Regards, Ali.

mgnv

mgnv Report 10 Feb 2014 02:11

Ali - buy the marr cert before ordering other certs. I think your Phyllis was the illegitimate d/o Margaret Ashworth, so I expect the father slot will be blank. You never know, though - my illegitimate g- gran named her father on her m.cert.

One can buy BMD certs thru the local office that now holds the registers - Bolton here - or one can buy images of the copies the local office made, and sent to the GRO.

A FreeBMD lookup gets you all the info you need to place an online order with the GRO via:
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1932 (>99%)
Knowles Thomas Ashworth Bolton 8c 899

One normally clicks on the page # to see all names referring this vol & page, which naturall includes the spouse as well as other couples who appear on the same page:

Marriages Sep 1932 (>99%)
Ashworth Phyllis Knowles Bolton 8c 899
Derbyshire Harold W Kershaw Bolton 8c 899
Kershaw Minnie Derbyshire Bolton 8c 899
Knowles Thomas Ashworth Bolton 8c 899

The following Phyllis Ashworth's were rego'ed in Bolton pre-1917:

Births Mar 1907 (>99%)
ASHWORTH Phyllis Bolton 8c 406

Births Sep 1910 (>99%)
ASHWORTH Phyllis Bolton 8c 343

Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page
Births Sep 1914 (>99%)
Ashworth Phyllis Stevenson Bolton 8c 698

One has 6 wks to rego a birth, so an eatly Sept 1916 birth could be rego'ed in the Dec quarter of 1916, and she'ld still be 16 in time for the marr (the min legal age after the late 1920s).

Mel has posted the 1907 Phyl - there's also:
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1930
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
ASHWORTH Phyllis BAILEY William Bolton, Congregational Church, Blackburn Road Bolton 142/5/66

and a lan-opc entry that confirms this marr is for the 1907 Phyl.

I think the following all relate to the 1914 Phyllis - but what do I know.

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1907
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
ASHWORTH John R STEVENSON Alice J Little Lever, St Mathew Bolton 43/2/468

1911 England Census Transcription
Address:1 SPRING ST LITTLE LEVER
Parish:LITTLE LEVER
County:Lancashire
Country:ENGLAND
Ecclesiastical District:-
Registration District:BOLTON
Registration District Number:461
Registration Sub-District: Farnworth
SubDistrict Number:1
Enumeration District:26
Census Reference:RG14PN23277 RG78PN1359 RD461 SD1 ED26 SN164

JOHN RICHARD ASHWORTH 1881 30 LITTLE LEVER LANCS HEAD M Clerk at Colliery
ALICE JANE ASHWORTH 1881 30 LITTLE LEVER LANCS WIFE M

I've set out my transcription in FreeBMD format:
Surname First name(s) DoB District Vol Page
Deaths Mar 1972 (-)
ASHWORTH Phyllis 21Jy1914 Farnworth 10c 403




mgnv

mgnv Report 10 Feb 2014 17:16

I think this is our Phyllis:

1911 England Census Transcription
Occupation:PAPER SORTER
Address:6 PETER STREET BOLTON
Parish:BOLTON
County:Lancashire
Country:ENGLAND
Ecclesiastical District:-
Registration District:BOLTON
Registration District Number:461
Registration Sub-District: Little Bolton
SubDistrict Number:7
Enumeration District:7
Census Reference:RG14PN23391 RG78PN1365 RD461 SD7 ED7 SN352

JOHN S WHITE 1864 47 MANCHESTER HEAD M Baker of Bread
MARY E E WHITE 1866 45 MANCHESTER WIFE M
WALTER WHITE 1895 16 HORWICH SON S Grinder
FREDERICK WHITE 1902 9 BOLTON SON School
GEORGE WHITE 1905 6 BOLTON SON School
MARGARET ASHWORTH 1893 18 BOLTON BOARDER S Paper Sorter
PHYLLIS ASHWORTH 1911 0[6m] BOLTON DAUGHTER
SARAH E WHITE 1897 14 BOLTON DAUGHTER S Mill Hand, Doffer
[marr 26y; 10 live births; 8 still living]

I see no obvious connection between Margaret and her landlords:

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1884
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
WHITE John S NORRIS Eugeina N Manchester, St. Philip Manchester 93/5/346

You can go to:
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1®ion=UNITED_KINGDOM_IRELAND
and search the collection:
England, Lancashire, Cheshire, Yorkshire, Parish Registers, 1603-1910
and find:

John Samuel White
England, Lancashire, Cheshire, Yorkshire, Parish Registers, 1603-1910
marriage: 20 October 1884 St Philip, Manchester, Lancashire, England
father: William White
spouse: Eugeina Or Eugenie Norris
other: John Norris
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FM1L-5K4

There's an image link at right on the above URL.
In spite of the title of that collection, it's really just the diocese of Manchester (which includes Bolton).
Not all the images are indexed, so sometimes you have to "Browse the images".
In this case, if you're looking at marriages, note the last element of the LancsBMD ref is the entry # (346 here).
At 2 entries per page, that's 173 images, plus the first page has no entries, so one would try image 174 of 253 - well, that image has entries 369/370, so we need image 176 of 253 - presumably a couple of earlier images were duplicated, or maybe retaken with different camera settings.


Well the 1911 looks like phyllis is illegitimate, so I went to the FreeBMD hit

Births Sep 1910 (>99%)
ASHWORTH Phyllis Bolton 8c 343

and clicked on the page # - maybe our Phyl is also indexed as Phyllis Smith or whatever.
She's not, but I did see:

Births Sep 1910 (>99%)
ASHWORTH James Bolton 8c 343

and I wondered if this was a twin bro - but there's no death thru 1911q2 (census day was 2/4/1911).
It seems not - there were 3 James's rego'ed in 1910q1 (on pp 321, 341, 343).
There are 3 suitable James's on 1911, all with 2 parents, so it just looks like a coincidence:

Census Reference:RG14PN23258 RG78PN1359 RD461 SD1 ED7 SN75
Census Reference:RG14PN23264 RG78PN1359 RD461 SD1 ED13 SN31
Census Reference:RG14PN23268 RG78PN1359 RD461 SD1 ED17 SN291

One can search at:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/
for rg14/23258 or whatever, and see:
Registration Sub-District: Farnworth
Civil Parish, Township or Place: Farnworth (part)
Etc

All 3 James's were rego'ed in the Farnworth subdistrict, and since Phyllis was on the same page as one of them, she was too, in spite of appearing in Little Bolton 6m later.
NB Bolton RD used 16 difft subdistricts thru 1911, but only 8 were still in use in 1911.
LancsBMD have transcribed no births post-1908. They have completed 6 of the 8 disused subdistricts.
The oldest untranscribed births are in 1872, but the transcribers are fairly active in Bolton, and update stuff abt every 4m.
It's also worth pointing out LancsBMD index by year of birth, not quarter of registration - consequently a birth in late Dec 1899, say, is liable to appear in FreeBMD's GRO index as rego'ed in 1900q1.


If you really want to see who's on the 1911 with James, go to:
http://www.1911census.co.uk/
Take the full person search link, then show advanced fields.
Enter the census ref RG14PN23258 SN75 or whatever
(For the 3 James's, if 2 surnames appear, add boarder or nephew to the search to sort them out)

mgnv

mgnv Report 10 Feb 2014 18:07

Do you know when/where Phyllis died?

There are 2 Phyllis Knowles deaths in Bolton RD:

I've set out the first transcription in FreeBMD format:
Surname First name(s) DoB District Vol Page
Deaths Mar 1978 (-)
KNOWLES Phyllis 28SE1910 Bolton 38 0346

First Name:PHYLLIS
Last Name:KNOWLES
Year:2000
Event Quarter:2
Month of Registration:6
Year Of Birth:1912
Birth Month:10
Birth Day:3
District:BOLTON
County:Lancashire
Country:England
District Number:0021D
Entry Number:031
Record set:England & Wales deaths 1837-2007
DOR:600

I think the 2000 death might relate to this Phyllis:

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1938
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
KNOWLES Thomas M SIMMS Phyllis Bolton, Victoria Wesleyan Chapel, Grecian Street Bolton 148/6/45

Births Dec 1912 (>99%)
Simms Phyllis Clark Bolton 8c 702

Alatck

Alatck Report 10 Feb 2014 21:28

Crikey mgnv, you've been busy. You've given me enough to write a novel here. Thanks! :-)

I must confess I've also found some of this info which I've already written down, including that of the illegitimate entry - I did wonder about that one. All the stuff that I hadn't come across and you've kindly provided will be copied and pasted into a folder I've opened on my desktop. I've already ordered the marriage certificate for Phyllis and Thomas in 1932. Sadly I don't know when Phyllis died but I'm assuming that it was in Bolton. Cheers again.