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Trying again !! James Greenwood 1832 - 1883

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Simon

Simon Report 3 Dec 2007 15:41

I need some help and inspiration
I can't work out where my gr gr grandfather was born.
He was born around 1832 or where his father came from - I am stuck

He married Henrietta Attwood in 1861.

Using the Census's I find entries for James married to Henrietta in 1861, 1871 and 1881. By 1891 the family were in Manchester without James. He died in 1883.
On the
1861 Census his birthplace is given as Lancs Bolton
1871 Census his birthplace is given as Bilston, Staffs
1881 Census his birthplace is given as Oldham Lancashire
I can't find him for sure on the 1841 or 1851 census can anybody help me.
His father was Richard Greenwood according to James' marriage certificate.

Hope someone can help

Simon

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 3 Dec 2007 15:56

The old "for reference":


Name: James Greenwood
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Henrietta
Gender: Male
Where born: Lankart Balton

Civil Parish: Sedgley
Ecclesiastical parish: Coseley
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England

Registration district: Dudley
Sub-registration district: Sedgley
ED, institution, or vessel: 46
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 106
Household Members:
Name Age
Henrietta Greenwood 27
James Greenwood 28


Well there you have it -- Lankard Balton! Pardon me, Lankart Balton. You just had to ask Ancestry. ;)

Will take a shot at finding him.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 3 Dec 2007 16:00

Father's name from marriage cert?

If you don't got it, you gotta get it. He may have been orphaned or boarded out by 1841, but odds are he'd be with his parents, and that would be the best way to find/confirm him in 1841 and maybe 1851.

Simon

Simon Report 3 Dec 2007 16:03

I have always thought Lankart Balton was Lancs Bolton. It does say Lankart Balton on the 1861 Census but other birth places on later census

Simon

Simon

Simon Report 3 Dec 2007 16:05

His fathers name from marriage cert. was Richard Greenwood.
I can't find any Richard's with a son James born abt 1832.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 3 Dec 2007 16:11

I was joking! You can *always* rely on Ancestry to tell you the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, doncha know?! And to spell it correctly every time. ;)

My 55-yr-old grx3 grandmother really did have a daughter who was 45 yrs old, and her name really was Campbell, not Campion ... at least, if you ask Ancestry ...

Dominique

Dominique Report 3 Dec 2007 16:17

On census sheet it is LANCS BOLTON.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 3 Dec 2007 16:23

Well ... if he wasn't with father Richard, then this one would be one candidate in 1841:


Name: James Greenwood
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Gender: Male
Where born: Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Prestwich Cum Oldham
Hundred: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Ashton and Oldham
Sub-registration district: Oldham above Town

James Greenwood 10
Joseph Whitehead 32
Ralph Whitehead 35
Susannah Whitehead 65


Birthplaces in censuses. In my experience, several things happen.

People get more general with each succeeding census, especially if they are living some distance from their birthplace. They start to refer to the nearest larger town, or one that the enumerator has heard of and recognizes by ear and can spell. Or they refer to where they grew up rather than where they were born. Or they give their place of residence as their place of birth, especially if their spouse and children were born there.

My grx2 grfather went from being born in Tamerton, in 1851, to being born in East Stonehouse, in 1861, to being born in Devonport, in 1871 -- in the latter two censuses, he was living in London, and it was all Devonport to them, I imagine.

In 1871, your Greenwoods were living in Bilston, and I imagine either they reported born there, for convenience, or someone assumed it.

Hey -- in 1871, someone has corrected their name from Grenwood to Greenwood at Ancestry. Someone you know, or have you been in touch? One of those close-mouthed people who says only "transcription error", no indication of what s/he knows about the person or whether s/he is related.

Anyhow, that James in 1841 -- I don't know the geography without consulting google maps, but is it reasonable that he would have been born in Bolton and reared by someone in Prestwich cum Oldham -- and then later reported that as his birthplace? -- edit -- perhaps not reared; his occupation was "cotton piecer", so he could have been orphaned and working, or simply a working child, as was not uncommon then.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 3 Dec 2007 16:26

Good grief, you people! Of course it's LANCS BOLTON. Did someone really think I thought it was Lankart Balton????

Too little fun around here some days ...

Dominique

Dominique Report 3 Dec 2007 16:38

Witnesses to marriage may hold a clue.If one is a female she might be a sister to James. Different surname because already married.
What is occupation of father?
Personally think Lancashire the birth county/

Simon

Simon Report 3 Dec 2007 16:40

Hi all

Thanks for the input

The known facts!

James was born in 1832 his father was Richard.

He was not born in Bilston. No other Greenwoods in Bilston that had a son James.

I think he was likely to be born in Lancashire as the name derived locally to Manchester in Heptonstall.

However I can't find a Richard with a son called James.
I have seen the 1841 Census for Joseph in Oldham area. I have discounted them so far.
Unless Joseph was Joseph Richard who was known as Richard.
On James and Henrietta's marriage certifcate it states father Richard Greenwod maybe he was Joseph Richard and James only knew him as Richard. When and where did Joseph on the 1841 census die?

Is their any other possibilities?

I must with your help work this one out. I must find out where my Greenwoods came from. I know it is not Bilston James 1832 went their to find work and then the family moved to Manchester to find work, but where did James 1832 family come from, that's what I need to know

Simon

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 3 Dec 2007 16:41

In 1841, there's this Richard Greenwood in Prestwich cum Oldham:


Name: Richard Greenwood
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1801
Gender: Male
Where born: Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Prestwich Cum Oldham
Hundred: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Bury
Sub-registration district: Pilkington

Alice Greenwood 3
Betty Greenwood 30
Richard Greenwood 40
Thomas Greenwood 1


He's an Ag Lab -- read "one step from the workhouse" (like those Campion ancestors of mine, several of whom missed that step over the years).

It's quite reasonable to think that a family as poor as most "agricultural labourers" were at that time would have sent their eldest son out to work at a very young age. That's what kids of farm worker families did, and still do in many parts of the world, of course. Industrialization was opening up new fields of labour, including "cotton piecer", I assume. The kids could get jobs that the adults couldn't, being viewed as better for some kinds of work (like rug making in the modern world), for instance.

That's no proof, but I think it's a very viable hypothesis!

Simon

Simon Report 3 Dec 2007 16:44

Dominique

Thanks for your help
from memory the witnesses were Henrietta's sister Catherine and a William Heem?

Richard Greenwood I think it states deceased I will check later.

Simon

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 3 Dec 2007 16:46

Hang on -- in your first post you said he was born 1832, and that's consistent with 1833, 1832 and 1833 in the 1861, 1871 and 1881 respectively.

You've said 1837 a couple of times now though. Slip of the finger?

Simon

Simon Report 3 Dec 2007 16:54



I think your hypothesis is a good one.

He would have been 9 or 10 in 1841. Surely he wouldn't have been sent far. If he was a stray working somewhere. Would he have been recorded?

Children did work as young as 3 in the mills, but I would have thought their parents would have also worked there. I maybe wrong.

If he was recorded on the 1841 Census somewhere in Lancashire we should be able to find him.

Maybe he wasn't recorded. Can you find him on the 1851 I couldn't. Only 1861,71 and 81. He died in 1883.
He worked as a Boiler Man in Bilston. So he had a trade and a very useful one at the time. He must have some kind of education, which may have not been possible if he was working away from home from a young age.

Simon

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 3 Dec 2007 17:12

Is "cotton piecer" a job that would have been home-based? Not part of the actual mill work. The 1840s were hungry times, that's one sure thing.

If Richard actually did have reasonably steady work as an ag lab, or just no other options, but there was an opportunity for the son to earn more doing other work (ag lab might not have been in great demand, too), it might be reasonable to see him sent a few miles away to live with someone who had that work available. Could have been a relation even. And that could have been his ticket out of agricultural labour and into an opportunity to learn a skill.

edit -- the people that the James in question in 1841 was living with were an older women and her two sons in their 30s, both Ag Labs, so it looks like he wasn't working with other workers who were home-based.

Have you found the sister Catherine Greenwood in either 1841 or 1851?? I'm not having much luck.

jansmith

jansmith Report 3 Dec 2007 20:50

Any good ?could father have died by 1841
Name: Richard Greenwood
Year of Registration: 1838
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Manchester (1837-1924)
County: Lancashire
Volume: 20
Page: 488

1841
Name: Jas Greenwood ---a pupil
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Gender: Male
Where born: Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Manchester
Hundred: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Manchester
Sub-registration district: Market Street

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 4 Dec 2007 01:16

And I think it's the best I can do! Especially today when I feel almost as bone tired and sore as the poor kid in your tale felt ...

So for now, you're stuck doing the thinking w/o my help. ;)

Keep us posted, though!

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 4 Dec 2007 01:27

Whitehead ... Whoodhead ...


RICHARD GREENWOOD
Spouse: ELIZABETH WHOODHEAD
Marriage: 18 MAR 1834 Elland, Yorkshire, England


The year's off though ...

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 4 Dec 2007 01:31

As is this year -- but hey, it's a Greenwood and a Whitehead!


RICHARDE GREENEWOODE
Spouse: EVE WHITEHEAD
Marriage: 20 OCT 1595 Eaton Bray, Bedford, England


Okay, time to go home for din and a nap.