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Trying again !! James Greenwood 1832 - 1883

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 5 Sep 2008 20:17

So the IGI gives this for William Greenwood's birth -- but it's submitted and not extracted (but given the detailed date, I'd suspect it's accurate from parish records), and it tells us nothing anyway.

WILLIAM GREENWOOD
Christening: 03 JUL 1834 Oldham, Lancashire, England
Father: HENRY GREENWOOD
Mother: BETTY


And I don't find a marriage.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 5 Sep 2008 20:20

Hmm. That batch has these two Greenwoods, both with parents Henry and Betty:


1. ANN GREENWOOD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 16 NOV 1834 Oldham, Lancashire, England
2. WILLIAM GREENWOOD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 03 JUL 1834 Oldham, Lancashire, England


Couldn't be the same Henry and Betty, obviously.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 5 Sep 2008 20:26

Two possibles for death of Henry Greenwood husband of Betty, father of William and Hannah (Hannah born 1838-1839):


Deaths Mar 1839
Greenwood Henry Ashton 20 107
Greenwood Henry Ashton 20 3[79]

Simon

Simon Report 5 Sep 2008 20:28

I'm not 100% convinced he was born in Oldham, maybe the greater area of Oldham but not Oldham itself.

Remember on one Census it gave place of birth Bolton and one Oldham.

Can you find Betty, Henry's wife maiden name. Is that Whitehead.

Maybe James Greenwoods marriage cert is wrong. Like you said 'abandoned' James might not have known his father.

Would beg the question how he became a skilled boilermaker over a hundred miles from his birthplace though.

Glad to have you back. Pm why you were banished. I love scandel

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 5 Sep 2008 20:34

Hang on -- missed this one somehow.

WILLIAM GREENWOOD
Christening: 03 JUL 1836 George Street Chapel-Independent Methodist Or Wesloldh, Oldham, Lancashire, England
Father: HENRY GREENWOOD
Mother: BETTY
Batch No.: C094871

That seems the more likely one for William.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 5 Sep 2008 20:38

I was banished for having fun. ;)

I don't know my Lancashire geography a bit, and haven't made much of an effort to figure it out. I wonder whether Bolton might not be enumerator deafness, for Oldham, Bolton being more well known? Are they close at all?

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 5 Sep 2008 20:41

Nope, can't find anything with Henry Greenwood's wife Betty's surname.

Simon

Simon Report 5 Sep 2008 20:48

They are close but a million miles away if you know what I mean.

Plenty of hills and valley in between especially in the 1840's and 50's

20 miles on current roads.

But Pilkington where Richard Greenwood lived with Betty is smack bang in the middle.

Maybe old parish boundries meant he could have been born in either.

However William Greenwood Fustian Cutter was living in Crompton which is 2-3 miles north of Oldham town Centre alongway from Bolton.

I will see if I can find anything on old boundries

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 5 Sep 2008 21:26

Poo, Firefox crashed. I'll just have to reconstruct a little more. ;)

What I was doing was recapping my Whitehead-Greenwood theory just for easy reference. For me!


1841 households.

1.
James Greenwood 10 - cotton piecer
Joseph Whitehead 32 - ag lab
Ralph Whitehead 35 - ag lab
Susannah Whitehead 65

Civil Parish: Prestwich Cum Oldham
Hundred: Salford
Registration district: Ashton and Oldham
Sub-registration district: Oldham above Town

2.
Betty Greenwood 30 - washerwoman
Hannah Greenwood 2
William Greenwood 5
Mary Whitehead 35 - cotton weaver
James Whitehead 40 - "
John Whitehead 40 - "

Civil Parish: Prestwich Cum Oldham
Hundred: Salford
Registration district: Ashton and Oldham
Sub-registration district: Crompton


1851

1.
Susannah Whitehead 75
Joseph Whitehead 46
Ralph Whitehead 46
Mary Whitehead 49 - daughter of Susannah
Hannah Thomas Broadbent 37 - daughter of Susannah
Sarah Ann Broadbent 4 - daughter of Hannah

Civil Parish: Oldham
Registration district: Oldham
Sub-registration district: Oldham

2.
Betty Greenwood 42 - Washerwoman
William Greenwood 15 - Cotton Fustian Cutter
(daughter Hannah is elsewhere)

Civil Parish: Crompton
Registration district: Oldham
Sub-registration district: Royton


The two households are related. Mary Whitehead is in Betty Greenwood's household in 1841 and in Susannah Whitehead's household in 1851.

James Greenwood is in Susannah Whitehead's household in 1851.

Whether he's your James Greenwood ... ?

But I really do think he's Betty Greenwood's James.

Possibilities:

- his father, name unknown, was a son of Susannah Whitehead to whom Betty Greenwood was not married

- his mother was Betty née Whitehead a daughter of Susannah Whitehead and her Greenwood husband was James's father

- his father was someone else altogether and Betty née Whitehead had a child before marrying a Greenwood (James would have been living with his grandmother even during that marriage, possibly)


Now it seems, from the William baptism(s), that his father was Henry Greenwood.

The William baptism record(s) is for Oldham. He was living in Crompton as a young child in 1841. But in 1861, he says:
Where born: Oldham, Lancashire, England


Given how the landscape is littered with both those surnames, that isn't likely the only Greenwood-Whitehead connection in the neighbourhood! And we still don't know what it was, except that

Mary Whitehead, daughter of Susannah Whitehead with whom James Greenwood was living in 1841, was living with Betty Greenwood in 1841.

Mary could be the mother of James, for another theory. His father could have been the brother of Henry Greenwood ... and in 1841, Betty and Mary, the widows of the Greenwood brothers Richard and Henry, were sharing quarters.

Many theories that make sense but are all missing the link to make them any more!

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 5 Sep 2008 21:30

Did you happen to get the birth certs for the two possible Hannah Greenwood-s (sister of William, daughter of Betty)?

Simon

Simon Report 5 Sep 2008 21:47

No I didnt get the birth certs of the Hannahs I just was sure enough

Simon

Simon Report 5 Sep 2008 21:50

Oldham and Bolton have always been separate parih areas ,but Pilkington is slap in the middle.

Richard Greenwood was born there

Hnery Greenwood from Oldham

Brothers???

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 5 Sep 2008 22:09

"Hnery Greenwood from Oldham"?

We don't know where Henry was from. He was apparently dead by 1841. Son William was born in Oldham.

Simon

Simon Report 5 Sep 2008 22:23

Sorry he could have been from Pilkington

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 5 Sep 2008 23:10

Here's an interesting list of christenings from the IGI.

Children of John Whitehead and Susy/Suzy -- remember that in 1841, Susannah Whitehead is shown as not born in county:


1. ANN WHITEHEAD - (mother Susannah - matches Hannah in 1851)
Gender: Female Christening: 13 JUN 1813 Wesleyan, Greetland, Yorkshire, England
2. JOSEPH WHITEHEAD (there's a Joseph in 1841 and 1851)
Gender: Male Christening: 04 MAR 1800 Wesleyan, Greetland, Yorkshire, England
3. BETTY WHITEHEAD - (matches Betty Greenwood in 1841 etc.)
Gender: Female Christening: 24 MAR 1808 Wesleyan, Greetland, Yorkshire, England
4. JOHN WHITEHEAD (a tad old for John in 1841)
Gender: Male Christening: 24 MAY 1794 Wesleyan, Greetland, Yorkshire, England
5. WILLM. WHITEHEAD (no match)
Gender: Male Christening: 05 JAN 1806 Wesleyan, Greetland, Yorkshire, England
6. THOS. WHITEHEAD (see below)
Gender: Male Christening: 27 NOV 1803 Wesleyan, Greetland, Yorkshire, England
7. JAMES WHITEHEAD (matches James in 1841)
Gender: Male Christening: 03 OCT 1802 Wesleyan, Greetland, Yorkshire, England
8. CHARLES WHITEHEAD (see below)
Gender: Male Christening: 04 JUN 1809 Wesleyan, Greetland, Yorkshire, England


1851

Name: Charles Whitehead
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1806
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Oldham, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Oldham
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: St James
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Oldham
Sub registration district: Oldham
ED, institution, or vessel: 1q
Household schedule number: 122

Charles Whitehead 45 - jobber in factory
Ann Whitehead 40 -- born Saddell? Yorkshire
Ann Whitehead 11
James Whitehead 18
John Whitehead 15
Mary Whitehead 17
Sarah Whitehead 13
Sarah Broadbent 38 - lodger, widow
William Broadbent 4


Another possible connection: Hannah Broadbent, daughter of Susannah, in 1851.


1841

Thomas Whitehead 35
Sarah Whitehead 30
John Whitehead 14
Martha Whitehead 10
Hannah Whitehead 7
James Whitehead 2
Joseph Whitehead 2
Mary Whitehead 3
William Whitehead 15

in Oldham old town -- all the family names are reproduced there again (although no Susannah; children did die in infancy). But then, what other names were there ...


1841

William Whitehead 40 - spinner
Sarah Whitehead 35
Betty Whitehead 5
Janos Whitehead 10
Joseph Whitehead 15
Mary Whitehead 15
Ralph Whitehead 3 - how common was the name Ralph?
Sarah Whitehead 12

Oldham below Town



Just some musings.

In 1841, Oldham was rather rife with Whiteheads born in Saddell/Saddleworth, Yorkshire. Dozens of 'em. It's between Oldham and Greetland, closer to Oldham.

Simon

Simon Report 6 Sep 2008 21:46

I agree Betty Greenwood is connected to the Whiteheads and James Greenwood is probably her son, but who is the father and is this my James?

Thanks for all your hard work Kath but you don't seem to be any closer. It's so frustrating this one.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 6 Sep 2008 22:50

Ah, we're destined by destiny on this one.

I click on TTF and what's at the very top of the page?

James Greenwood. And you. I'd suspect skullduggery of some sort ... if I were a Pisces ...

PISCES: February 19 - March 20
You have a vivid imagination and often think you are being followed by the CIA or FBI. ...


"but who is the father and is this my James?"

Rhetorical question, I assume. ;)


Someone here at GR has Ann Whitehead born 1813 in Greetland in her tree. This one, the weakest link in my chain maybe:

1. ANN WHITEHEAD - (mother Susannah)
Gender: Female Christening: 13 JUN 1813 Wesleyan, Greetland, Yorkshire, England


I'd probably fire off a PM and see whether she can shed any light on that family.


My very strong suspicion is:

Betty Whitehead born c1808 had a child named James c1832. The child went to live with her mother at some point.

The child's father was Richard. We don't know his surname. It could have been Greenwood.

She later married Henry Greenwood, who died before 1841, after the children William and Sarah were born.

Either James's father was a Greenwood, or he adopted his stepfather's name.


The James Greenwood with the Whiteheads is just the only James Greenwood going spare who remotely matches yours in 1841.


Now, yours did report born in Bolton in 1861. And there's a James in Bolton in 1841 (we've probably been through this before):

Benjamin Greenwood 15
David Greenwood 20
James Greenwood 10
Mary Greenwood 15
Sarah Greenwood 40

But he's accounted for in 1871 at least, in Westhoughton:

James Greenwood 41
Lambert Greenwood 3 6 months
Nancy Greenwood 37
Sarah Greenwood 76


Now, here's another James I considered. I found him because the mother's name was Betty, but that was an assumption that has no basis. Looking for someone who might have been christened in his mother's surname, but adopted his father's (Greenwood) later. But he's a bit interesting.

JAMES HOPKIN
Christening: 05 DEC 1830 George Street Chapel-Independent Methodist Or Wesloldh, Oldham, Lancashire, England
Mother: BETTY HOPKIN
Batch No.: C094871

Actually daughter Sarah Ann was christened Mayall:

SARAH ANN MARGRETT MAYALL 1835.
The household in 1841 in Oldham below town:

James Hopkin 10
Sarah Ann Hopkin 6
Edna Magill 1
Ellen Magill 4
Betty Mayall 35
(checked the image; obviously the surnames are all Mayall)

It seems that the mother subsequently married:

ELLIN MAYALL
Christening: 04 JUN 1837 George Street Chapel-Independent Methodist Or Wesloldh, Oldham, Lancashire, England
Father: JOSEPH MAYALL
Mother: BETTY
Batch No.: C094871

They're next door to an elderly Mr Buckley, and in 1851 there's a Buckley child in the household where James is:

Name: James Hopkin
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Relation: Nephew
Gender: Male
Where born: Oldham, Lancashire, England

In 1861 Elizabeth Hopkin is a widow whose youngest child is 3. This is probably the death of James Hopkin:

Name: James Hopkins
Year of Registration: 1858
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Oldham
County: Greater Manchester, Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 400

So it seems we can rule him out.

cont'd

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 7 Sep 2008 00:05

Now looking in the same batch as the Hopkin/Mayall children, because it's handy, for a James born to an unmarried mother around your James's time, there's this one:

JAMES HUDSON
Christening: 08 JUN 1834 George Street Chapel-Independent Methodist Or Wesloldh, Oldham, Lancashire, England
Mother: MARTHA HUDSON
Batch No.: C094871

He could be this one in 1841, but it's not a good match:

James Hudson 12
Ralph Hudson 10
Simeon Hudson 40
Thomas Hudson 7


and this one:

JAMES KEY
Christening: SEP 1834 George Street Chapel-Independent Methodist Or Wesloldh, Oldham, Lancashire, England
Mother: EMMA KEY
Batch No.: C094871

The only likely candidate in 1841, born c1829, has parents John and Mary.


It could be impossible to trace either of them, if the mother married and the James adopted the stepfather's name. I don't see a marriage for either woman in the IGI.

Simon

Simon Report 7 Sep 2008 08:53

Thanks very much for really trying to find him.

Ive pm'd the lady who has Ann Whitehead in her tree.

She is the only Whitehead she has in her tree

I have messaged all the other people with Whiteheads in Greetland, Ripponden and Rishworth too.

Who knows someone may know something.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 7 Sep 2008 21:09

Because I have zero Lancashire roots of my own, I've never paid a lot of attention to this site:

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk

But look what I just found:

1838
GREENWOOD Hannah
Oldham Above Town
Oldham
mother WHITEHEAD
OAT/1/210


That's the Hannah, daughter of Betty Greenwood, sister of William, in 1841:

Name: Hannah Greenwood
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Gender: Female
Where born: Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Prestwich Cum Oldham
Hundred: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Ashton and Oldham
Sub registration district: Crompton

Betty Greenwood 30
Hannah Greenwood 2
William Greenwood 5
Mary Whitehead 35
James Whitehead 40
John Whitehead 40

The one whose father was Henry, from William's marriage cert, if I'm recalling correctly.

So that confirms that bit of the story -- we still have no idea whether it has anything to do with you, but it confirms my construction of the Whitehead-Greenwood connection between that household and Susannah Whitehead's household, where a James Greenwood aged 10 is living in 1841, and where the 1841 Mary Whitehead is living in 1851. He definitely has to be the son of Betty (Whitehead) Greenwood.

But the records only go back to 1837.