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K

I have been convinced for months of your Whitehead-Greenwood theory / connection.

Susannah Whitehead wasn't born in Lancashire and is likely to be from Greetland.

Hannah and William's father was Henry.

Maybe James father was Henry but somehow he got called Richard on his marriage cert.

Maybe he died when James was very young and Richard, Henry's brother was his father in James eyes.

I will try and find Henry and Richard death cert on IGI.


If his grandfather John Whitehead was a wool cloth manufacturer it might explain how he became a Boilermaker.

The 1851 might have the answer. I wonder if aged 20 in 1851 James was working in the Whitehead Mill.

Since we can find no record on line of the Betty Whitehead - Henry Greenwood marriage, I would still suggest getting Hannah's birth cert -- again, one of these two:


Births Jun 1838
Greenwood Hannah Ashton & c 20 136

Births Dec 1838
GREENWOOD Hannah Ashton 20 81


It will confirm that her father really was *Henry* Greenwood (the name on William's marriage certificate not being proof).

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Adding on edit for reminder -- from the IGI, submitted record:

WILLIAM GREENWOOD
Christening: 03 JUL 1834 Oldham, Lancashire, England
Father: HENRY GREENWOOD
Mother: BETTY

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This still leaves the possibility that James was born before that marriage, adopted his stepfather's surname, but invented a father with his stepfather's surname and his real father's given name when he married. This was not at all uncommon for children born outside marriage who used a stepfather's surname from childhood onward but knew something about their real father.

What's this now? --

"The 1851 might have the answer. I wonder if aged 20 in 1851 James was working in the Whitehead Mill."


There are two possibilities for deaths for Henry Whitehead in the GRO. He had to have died after 1837, to be the father of Hannah.


Deaths Mar 1839
Greenwood Henry Ashton 20 107
Greenwood Henry Ashton 20 3[79]


Unfortunately the death certificate would likely not give any info to confirm.

Oh, all right. I'll check that illegible page number at Ancestry (which has much clearer images than FreeBMD).

It's volume 20 page 39. Perfectly legible. The other one is correct, volume 20 page 107.

I hesitate to submit a correction to FreeBMD because I may already have done it, and they get extremely snappish if you don't follow their rules. Kinda like dealing with the Soup Nazi.

(or like dealing with me. ;) -- that explanation for the PMs did occur to me!)

What's this now? --

"The 1851 might have the answer. I wonder if aged 20 in 1851 James was working in the Whitehead Mill."


John Whitehead husband of Suzey was the owner of a Woollen Mill (according to Francis Toit)

Can you find John Whitehead on the 1841 or 51.

If he was dead by 1841, where did young James get the education and experience to be a boilermaker by 1861 a hundred miles from Oldham in Bilston.

Ah, I thought you meant we'd had a James aged 20 working in the mill ...

How about this one?


Name: James Greenwood
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Relation: Nephew
Gender: Male
Where born: Baildon, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: Manningham -- rigiht place??
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Occupation: P.L. Weaver Worsted

Registration district: Bradford
Sub registration district: Horton
ED, institution, or vessel: 2l
Household schedule number: 107

James Greenwood 18
William Long 55 - Woolcomber
Mary Long 56
Abram Long 14 - Cotton Spinner
Harriet Long 30 - P.L. Weaver (Worsted)
James Long 26 - Wool Comber
John Long 22 - P.L. Weaver (Worsted)
Sarah Ann Long 16 - P.L. Weaver (Worsted)

John Whitehead husband of Suzey isn't likely our Whiteheads -- may be parents of that batch of children born in Greetland, in the IGI, but these really don't seem to be the Whiteheads in Oldham from before 1841.

So I wouldn't be looking too hard for a connection to the Whitehead Mill.


Edit -- does F's tree not have death dates for them?

Manningham's between Bradford and Leeds to far from Greetland.

No way of linking him to our James in 1841 or 61,71 or 81 though.

In fact would give me 4 different birthplace for James.

Baildon is notrh of Bradford, he must have really been forgetful to say Bolton and Yorkshire in later census.

Manningham is where the Whitehead Mill was, no? That's what google told me, so that's where I looked.

I think that Greetland connection I thought was a possible really isn't, though. The Whiteheads in Oldham seem to be a different batch altogether.

Oh Ok Kath.

So Susey Thwaite is not our married Susanah Whitehead.

Who was our Susannah's husband?

On the 27th Sept. the manchester and lancashire family history society are having a open day. I will go to see if I can find James Greenwood on the 1851 Census. They have transcribed a water damaged section of the census that includes Oldham.

I will get the two Hannah Greenwoods birth certs.


Are we any closer to cracking this one?

Is little James living with the Whiteheads in 1841 mine?

1851


Name: James Whitehead
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Ashton ??, Lancashire, England
(oh, it says Ashton under Lyne)

Civil Parish: Newton
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
Town: Newton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

>> Occupation: Cotton Piecer

Registration district: Manchester
Sub registration district: Newton
ED, institution, or vessel: 2f
Household schedule number: 133

William Bottomley 20
James Cooeley 26
Allen Denerley 47
Ann Fish Denerley 30
Elizabeth Denerley 9
Hugh Denerley 5
Sarah Denerley 46
William Denerley 21
Daniel Price 19
John Price 45
William Ridge 21
James Whitehead 20


Looks very much like "our" 1841 James Greenwood in the Whitehead household in Oldham.

Yes! Check out the new records, for sure.

Also ask them what they think about him being in the military / navy in 1851, whether there's any way of checking that out (Kew, I guess), and whether anyone has any ideas about how he would have learned his trade.

K

I think you found this 1851 record before.

But how did a Cotton Piecer in 1851 in Ashton become a boilermaker in Bilston in 1861.

Too old ...



JAMES WHITEHEAD
Christening: 21 MAR 1825 Burnley, Lancashire, England
Mother: BETTY WHITEHEAD
Batch No.: P005202

But I don't see him in 1851.

Could Whitehead have been Betty's first married name?

And William another son of that marriage?

And she then married / hooked up with Henry Greenwood and moved to Oldham?


WILLIAM WHITEHEAD
Birth: 16 JAN 1834
Christening: 24 FEB 1834 Ebenezer Primitive Methodist, Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Father: RICHD. WHITEHEAD
Mother: BETTY WALSH
Batch No.: C086351


JAMES WHITEHEAD
Birth: 2 AUG 1831
Christening: 18 SEP 1832 Ebenezer Primitive Methodist, Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Father: RICHARD WHITEHEAD
Mother: ELIZABETH WELSH
Batch No.: C086351


Could the 1836 christening of William Greenwood, son of Henry Greenwood and Betty --

03 JUL 1836 George Street Chapel-Independent Methodist Or Wesloldh, Oldham, Lancashire, England

have been a rechristening??

The marriage for those births:


Richard Whitehead
Spouse: Betty Walsh
Marriage: 20 JAN 1831 Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Batch No.: M007085


Nope. They're in Blackburn in 1841.

Richard Whitehead 30
Betty Whitehead 35
James Whitehead 8
Jane Whitehead 5
Margaret Whitehead 3
Thomas Whitehead 1
William Whitehead 7

Ruling OUT is important!!

Great Work K

Ruling out is so important.

Everything you do leads us back to James Greenwood in Oldham living with Whiteheads on the 1841.

But who were his mum and dad?

Betty Greenwood?

Richard Greenwood?

Henry Greenwood?

Was he illegitimate?

If this is my gr gr grandfather how did he become a skilled boilermaker in Bilston over 100 miles from Oldham by the 1861 Census.

Where was he in 1851?

Was he in the military?

Military Records

Record Summary
Scope and content Folios 370-372. James Greenwood, born Yorkshire.
Attestation papers to serve in the Royal Marines at Woolwich 1855 (when aged 19).
Discharged [discharge date not given] as [discharge reason not given].
Joined from West Yorkshire Militia.
Covering dates 1855
Availability Open Document, Open Description, Normal Closure before FOI Act: 30 years
Held by The National Archives, Kew


Record Summary
Scope and content Folios 191-195. James Greenwood, born Lancashire.
Attestation papers to serve in the Royal Marines at Portsmouth 1852 (when aged 23).
Discharged 1865 as Limited Service.
Covering dates 1852-1865
Availability Open Document, Open Description, Normal Closure before FOI Act: 30 years
Held by The National Archives, Kew


From national archives. I don't think they fit my James but rules two more out.

KB look at this record gives Michael Greenwood as his father.!

Search Record Details
County Staffordshire
Place Wolverhampton
Church St Peters
RegisterNumber 430442
MarriageDate 25 Nov 1860
GroomForename James
GroomSurname GREENWOOD
GroomAge 28
GroomParish
GroomCondition
GroomOccupation Boiler maker
GroomAbode Bilston St Leonards
BrideForename Henrietta
BrideSurname ATTWOOD
BrideAge 26
BrideParish
BrideCondition
BrideOccupation
BrideAbode Bilston St Leonards
GroomFatherForename Michael
GroomFatherSurname GREENWOOD
GroomFatherOccupation Farmer
BrideFatherForename William
BrideFatherSurname GOODWAY
BrideFatherOccupation Carpenter
WitnessOneForename William
WitnessOneSurname KEEN
WitnessTwoForename Catharine
WitnessTwoSurname GOODWAY
Notes Banns; Recorded by H HOUSMAN
FileNumber 4750


Kindly found on freereg by Tracy. In my excitement to let KB know of new developments after 9 months, I forgot to say it was Tracy found it. Apologies but this breakthrough is amazing. Helpful maybe

Well there's a turnup for the books.

You have a copy of the Greenwood-Attwood marriage certificate? And it says Richard Greenwood for father?

Everyghing else in your post is the same as on the marriage certificate?

Where's that record from? You need to look at the original! "Michael" could be a mistranscription of "Richard".

I long ago corrected that exact mistake in a census entry for a Richard Monck whom Ancestry had transcribed as Michael (who, all this time later, I am considering as a suspect in my mystery ...).