Genealogy Chat

Hello Everyone,

Julie...Hi!
Thanks for pointing me in the direction of the post that mentions the Sardinian Chapel and the Roman Catholic Cemetery at Kensal Green.
I will bookmark it and read through it.
I have had a very quick look and it sounds very interesting.
Thank you so much for letting me know about this!
Best wishes,
Paula.

Hi Paula

You might find this thread interesting/helpful:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1132516

There is mention of the Sardinian Chapel and also a Roman Catholic Cemetery at Kensal Green with a very helpful man whom you can 'phone and ask to do look ups!

Julie

Hello Everyone,

Thank you all so much for your continued interest and help! It is much appreciated.

mgnv-
Thank you for the information on the Roman Catholic Church at Lincoln's Inn Fields.

Qinsgran,Ozibird and Selena-
Thank you all for your ongoing interest and help.I will definately be ordering a few more certificates this week-I have been waiting to get in touch with a few overseas relatives(who have been out of contact with the Easter break) to make sure that we don't purchase the same certificates!
I have also been trying to decide which will be the most useful ones to get first.Hopefully they will all fit into the puzzle anyway!

I agree that it is very sad that Julia Jones seems to have been institutionalised for such a long time.I will try and find out more about her.

I don't know if Richard Jones had any siblings.I was told that he moved to Perth in Western Australia and became a tobacco farmer.I am hoping to hear from my Mother's cousin(she is unavailable at the moment due to illness)as she actually met Richard Jones and may have more information about him and his family.I was sent some photos of Richard Jones and also have photos of his grandson with his wife and twin daughters.

Selena-thank you also for the information about the inclusion of ages at death,it is good to know.

Thank you all so much for your help-I will keep the information coming as I find it out!

Best wishes,
Paula.

Re the death certificiate for Robert, got this from googling:

From 1837 a death had to be registered within 8 days; in 1875 this was reduced to 5 days. From 1866 onwards, death indexes give the age of the deceased at death

So unfortunately, the index doesn't give his age, but hopefully the certificate will.

I agree that you need some more certificates now :)

Paula, I agree with Quinsgran. It's about time you bit the bullet & bought a couple of certs.

You have so much information that looks right that you need to know for sure. Get a couple that will give you the most important information for now.

You'll keep us posted with new information, won't you? This has been such an interesting journey!

Ozi.

Hi Paula.
I think you really need to order certs. All of us have done this and found them to be wrong. However this is the only way to eliminate them.

I ordered a death cert for someone I thought was an adult. When it arrived it was the baby sister of my 2xgt grandfather who I knew nothing about having been born between census.
The first name was mistranscriibed but on close examination Mary was Mercy. I then found her birth.So this was a bonus.
However other wrong certs proved to be no relation.Just be grateful we are not searching for Smith

Poor Julia Ewins/Jones in an asylum for at least 30 years. I wonder if its possible to get her records

Out of interest I googled Richard Jones tobacco farmer.
It came up with a Richard Jones born 1936 conservationist born Sarina Queensland. Son of George Jones tobacco farmer.

Might be a long shot but did Richard Jones have a brother called George? Did they both go to Australia to farm tobacco?

Paula - your ignorance is forgiven. What's less forgivable is your not thinking to google for "LMA parish records" or somesuch - anyway:
http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/Corporation/LGNL_Services/Leisure_and_culture/Records_and_archives/

The LDS FHL does have a film for RC records from Lincoln's Fields, but they only seem to have marrs:

Title Parish register printouts of Holborn, London, England, (Roman Catholic Church, Lincoln's Inn Fields), marriages, 1730-1822
Authors Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Genealogical Department (Main Author)

Note Location Film
Parish register printouts of Holborn, London, England, (Roman Catholic Church, Lincoln's Inn Fields), marriages, 1730-1822 FHL BRITISH Film 883883 Item 6

Hello again,
I just had a look for a death entry for a Julia Jones in Hertfordshire after 1901 and found this:

Deaths Jun 1928 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jones Julia 77 St.Albans 3a 846

Does this sound right?
Thanks for your help,
Best wishes,
Paula.

Hello Everyone,

I will include my latest information on my search for Joseph Ewins(junior) born 1863 and his possible siblings.

Joseph Ewins(junior) had a sister named Julia Ewins.I am still awaiting information about if she was older or younger than Joseph & where she was born.I know that she married a Mr Jones and they had a son together called Richard Jones.I think that he was born around 1887.
Richard moved to Perth,Western Australia(I don't know when) and became a tobacco farmer
.Some of my relatives were in contact with Richard and his family but unfortunately those relatives were living in Darwin at the time of Cyclone Tracey and their contact details were lost.I do not know anything else about Julia with regards to her circumstances.

I have looked for her in the Barnet area and found these entries:

1871 census-in the Union Workhouse(it says unmarried but this was just a ditto so it might be wrong)She was a gen. dom. servant listed as an imbecile.

Name: Julia G Jones
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1850
Relation: Pauper
Gender: Female
Where born: Barnet, Hertfordshire, England
Civil Parish: Chipping Barnet
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: Barnet
Sub registration district: Barnet
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 273
.............................

1881 census-seems to be the same one again,in the Barnet Union Workhouse.Still listed as an unmarried domestic servant,imbecile.
Name: Julia Jones
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Relation: Inmate
Gender: Female
Where born: Barnet, Hertfordshire, England

Civil Parish: Chipping Barnet
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England

Street address: "Barnet Union Workhouse"
Education:

Employment status: View Image
Occupation: Servt Dom

Registration district: Barnet
Sub registration district: Barnet
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
..........................
1901 census-in the Hertfordshire County lunatic Asylum,this time it lists her as married and a lunatic.
Name: Julia Jones
Age: 49
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relation: Patient
Gender: Female
Where born: Barnet, Hertfordshire, England

Civil Parish: St Peter
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: St Albans
Sub registration district: St Albans
ED, institution, or vessel: Hertfordshire County Lunatic Asylum
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 1
..................
I suppose that this could be Julia Ewins(junior) who married a Mr Jones.As I said...I don't know much about her except what I have written.
I have not been able to locate a marriage entry for a Julia Ewins to a Mr Jones so far.

I have found a death entry which sounds like it could be for the Richard Ewins(widow) who was living with Julia in 1901 and present at her deatth in 1902.

Name: Richard Ewins
Estimated Birth Year: ABT 1855
Year of Registration: 1915
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 60
District: Barnet
County: Greater London, Hertfordshire, Middlesex
Volume: 3a
Page: 415 (click to see others on page)

I have also been trying to locate a marriage for this son as he is a widow.I did a search on Free bdm for a marriage that occurred between 1871(when he was a 15 year old) and 1902(he was a widow in 1901).I found this marriage:

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Jun 1880 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dalley Agnes Hampstead 1a 1099
Edwards Margaret Hampstead 1a 1099
Ewins Richard Hampstead 1a 1099
Sturgess Silvanus William Hampstead 1a 1099

Then I looked for a death for either a Agnes EWINS or a Margaret EWINS and found this:

Deaths Mar 1885 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ewins Margaret 30 Edmonton 3a 232
EWINS Margaret 80 Edmonton 3a 232

I might get the death certificate for Richard Ewins.Will it list him as "the widower of..."?
If it has his wife as Margaret then I might be able to confirm his father's name by getting the marrige certificate.It might also give some new research hints if it says who reported his death.

Thank you so much for your continued encouragement,advice and help.
I really appreciate it.
Best wishes,
Paula.

Hi Everyone,
Thanks so much for your input!
Thank you to mgnv,Sylvia and Selena for your replies.

The Sardinian Chapel is a Roman Catholic Church which now goes by the name of The Church of St Anselm and St Cecilia.Here is a website link that has the church history on it:
http://www.rcdow.org.uk/lincolnsinnfields/aboutus/default.asp
Is it likely that these Baptism records are at the church?If I wanted to search their Baptisms from 1863 how would I go about this?(I am in Australia)

mgnv-Please forgive my ignorance....what is the LMA?

Sylvia-thank you for mentioning that the Catholics didn't co-operate with the Mormons,I wasn't aware of that.

Selena-you mentioned the death certificate for Robert Ewins from 1856.I have been assuming(I know...never assume!!) that this was a child and this reasoning has clouded my thoughts.What I found was:

I have found 2 possible births for Robert Ewins(the son) however there is also a death entry so it is possible that one of them died.
Here they are:
The first possible birth...
Name: Robert Ewins
Year of Registration: 1852
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: St Giles
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 336 (click to see others on page)

The second possible birth....
Name: Robert Ewins
Year of Registration: 1855
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: St Giles
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 343 (click to see others on page)

Either of those could be this death....
Name: Robert Ewins
Year of Registration: 1856
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: St Giles
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: (click to see others on page)
They have left off the page number but I had a look and think it says Volume 1b page 225.

As I was looking for Robert(the son) I was thinking that 2 babies were born and that one of them died.I hadn't thought that this death could be Robert Ewins-the father.Is there any way of checking the death age before purchasing the certificate?

I have looked for Julia on the 1861 census as Kenedy but haven't seen her as yet.Julia was with William Kenedy (and Robert & Richard)in Chipping Barnet in 1871.I have come across the Kenedy/Kennedy family(2 or 3 branches of this family) in Chipping Barnet on the 1861,1871 and 1851 census so far.I think William Kennedy was perhaps this married sailor from the 1861 census

Name: William Kennedy
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Relation: Ordinary Seaman
Gender: Male
Where born: London, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Vessels
County/Island: Royal Navy
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: Royal Navy
Sub registration district: Royal Navy
ED, institution, or vessel: Nile
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 1

I have noticed the variation in ages of Julia Fitzgerald/Ewins but am open to this as I know that ages etc. are often wrong.

I have always been told that Joseph was born in England.I am beginning to think that perhaps the births of the children were not registered as I am having so much difficulty locating them.This is why I have held off ordering the possible birth certificates for Robert Ewins at the moment.

I will continue this in a new post,
Best wishes,
Paula.

Hi Paula, just a couple of thoughts on this.

Have you ordered Robert's death cert from 1856 to see who the informant was? Just to check that it is the right man, hopefully Julia would be the informant. Also, would this mean that Robert is not actually Joseph's father as he was born 1863?

Have you looked for Julia on the 1861 as Kennedy?

Or could Julia have moved back in with mum on the 1861 as Julia was widowed and might be entered as Fitzgerald by mistake?

Have you noticed how her age changes?

Death in 1902 age 64 so born 1838
73 on the 1901 making her born 1828
49 in 1891 born 1842
41 on 1881 making her born 1840
33 on the 1871, so born 1838
23 on the 1851, making her born 1828
22 on marriage in 1849 to Robert, so born 1827

Maybe Joseph (c1863) and Richard (c1859) were born in Ireland and mum Julie was in Ireland around 1861 which is why you can't find her.

Just found this by googling civil registration in Ireland:

" Compulsory civil registration of non-Roman Catholic marriages began on April 1st, 1845. The registration of births, deaths and all marriages commenced on January 1st, 1864.

So working sideways, have you thought about ordering the birth cert for Robert born St Giles?

Sorry for the long message, have just been thinking aloud really.


Fingers crossed for something more definate soon,

Is te Sardinian Chapel Catholic??

If so, I believe that you find very few Catholic records on familysearch (and therefore on the Hugh Wallis IGI site) because the Catholics refused to give the Mormons the right to extract information ffrom Catholic records


something to do with possible re-baptisms into the Mormon church



sylvia

I've just done a place search for Holborn in the LDS FHL library catalog, and there's no records listed there for the Sardinian Chapel (or at least not by that name), so I doubt the LDS have extracted anything from there.
Maybe try the LMA.

Hi Everyone,

I was wondering if someone could let me know where to find the IGI Batch number so that I can search the births/baptism records for the Sardinian Chapel at Holborn.I have looked but just can't seem to find it.

I was hoping to see if Joseph Ewins (born 1863) is listed as the couple that I believe are his parents(Julia Fitzgerald & Robert Ewins) were married there in 1849.

Thank you so much for your help!
Best wishes,
Paula.

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for persisting with this!

mgnv.........Hi, thanks for letting me know about NOK.I wasn't aware of that.
Thank you for the information on tracing Richard Jones as I wasn't sure where to start with that.

Ozibird....Hello again,sorry for my vagueness.I was having a "I don't know where to go next" moment.

You are correct...I have not been able to find a birth certificate for Joseph Ewins(junior) who was born in 1863.His Army papers from 1883 said he was born in Bloomsbury.

The problem also is that on Joseph(juniors) marriage certificate it says his father is Joseph Ewins(harness maker) but the only marriage we have found is Julia Fitzgerald marrying Robert Ewins(basket maker) in St Giles in 1849.
My aunt is still trying to locate a Joseph Ewins(senior) who is a harness maker who married Julia Fitzgerald.
This 1849 marriage seems to tie in because......
WHAT WE WERE LOOKING FOR:

We needed to find a Julia Fitzgerald who married a Ewins who had a son born in Bloomsbury.
We know that Julia Ewins was probably widowed and living in Barnet in 1883.
We have been told that Joseph Ewins(junior) attended boarding school.
It is likely that Julia Ewins died in Barnet.
My second cousin was told that Julia Ewins sold flowers.

WHAT WE HAVE FOUND:

We have found a Julia Fitzgerald who married a Ewins(in a catholic church) in an area very close to Bloomsbury.
We have found a Julia Ewins who is a widow living in Barnet.
We have found a catholic boarding school in Barnet with a Joseph Ewins attending.
We have found a Julia Ewins who died in Barnet in 1902.This Julia Ewins had a son called Richard Ewins living with her when she died.
The year before-in 1901-there was a Julia Ewins living at the same address with her son Richard Ewins who was born in Bloomsbury.
There was also a Julia(listed as Kenedy but I am sure that was not her married name as there is no record of marriage)in Barnet in 1871 (who was a flower maker) living with 2 boys(probably her sons) called Robert Ewings and Richard Ewings.

There seem to be too many things that seem to be a match to dismiss a connection.

Do you think that I am pursuing the right family?
Any thoughts.......
Thanks so much,
Paula.

Paula, can you update us on what the problem is? I don't want to go back & read all the messages.

I think it is to do with Julia's husband - "My aunt is still worried that on Joseph Ewins(junior) marriage certificate it says his father is Joseph Ewins who was a harness maker."

Is it Joseph Ewins jnr's father? You have one bloke & your aunt is sure it's not him. Am I right?

Have you found Joseph c1863 birth cert yet?

Ozi.

Tidying up some old details: -
you can search for Richard Jones in WA - there seem some possible hits at:
http://www.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/GenResearch.html

on the attestation papers I've seen, the order of preference for next of kin seems to be: wife, mother, father, sibling, and I've rarely seen a case of someone jumping up the queue. I must admit there are several mother/father pairs on the CWGC site, and I have seen a Canadian soldier list his brother in Canada ahead of his parents in the UK, but that's about it, so I wouldn't attach any significance, either one way or the other, to the mother alone being named as NOK.

Hello Everyone,

I have not been on the computer for a few days so I have no new information.
I am not really sure where to search next....any suggestions?
If anyone has any thoughts please feel free to add them....I think that I have become too familiar with all of this and may be missing something.

Thanks so much for any suggestions!!
Paula.

Hi Everyone,

Thank you all for following this post-I know it is getting very long!!

I have been trying to research the new details that were revealed with the marriage certificate but have not got very far as yet.

I know that the Sardinian Chapel was a Roman Catholic church which is now known as the Church of St Anselm and St Cecilia.They were both living at 17 Lincoln Court which I have found is in South St Giles(on the 1851-district 5a & 5b- and 1861-district 5- census).Robert Ewins had a father also named Robert Ewins who was also a basket maker.I have not found him on a census yet.
I have looked for the witnesses and found a Mary Canton(on the 1851 census) living nearby at 14 Lincoln Court(with her husband Malachi Canton).By 1861 Malachi and Mary Canton are in the St George and Bloomsbury United Parish Workhouse.

Please let me know if you think that the information that I have uncovered so far appears to be "the right people".
My aunt is still worried that on Joseph Ewins(junior) marriage certificate it says his father is Joseph Ewins who was a harness maker.
I will list my reasons for thinking that I am on the right track and please agree or disagree.I would be very grateful for the opinions!!

WHAT WE WERE LOOKING FOR:

We needed to find a Julia Fitzgerald who married a Ewins who had a son born in Bloomsbury.
We know that Julia Ewins was probably widowed and living in Barnet in 1883.
We have been told that Joseph Ewins(junior) attended boarding school.
It is likely that Julia Ewins died in Barnet.
My second cousin was told that Julia Ewins sold flowers.

WHAT WE HAVE FOUND:

We have found a Julia Fitzgerald who married a Ewins(in a catholic church) in an area very close to Bloomsbury.
We have found a Julia Ewins who is a widow living in Barnet.
We have found a catholic boarding school in Barnet with a Joseph Ewins attending.
We have found a Julia Ewins who died in Barnet in 1902.This Julia Ewins had a son called Richard Ewins living with her when she died.
The year before-in 1901-there was a Julia Ewins living at the same address with her son Richard Ewins who was born in Bloomsbury.
There was also a Julia(listed as Kenedy but I am sure that was not her married name as there is no record of marriage)in Barnet in 1871 (who was a flower maker) living with 2 boys(probably her sons) called Robert Ewings and Richard Ewings.

There seem to be too many things that seem to be a match to dismiss a connection.

Thank you all so much for your time and efforts!!!
You are all wonderful.
Best wishes,
Paula.

nudge