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FINDING WHERE SOMEONE BURIED

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Joanne

Joanne Report 30 Mar 2010 08:52

Hi annabel. Thats great thanks so much. I honestly believed Minnie had died as could not find her. Hope that is MY Minnie. I am still well confused. But its funny as Dad always talked about neices or cousins he had no idea which that used to visit called Ivy and Sissy Richings , maybe they were Minnies grandkids???? I guess its not being able to understand all the info I am given. Going to go back over it all now. thanks again Jo

Joanne

Joanne Report 30 Mar 2010 10:19

Hi Meg. cant thank you enough for all your efforts you have been amazing. At dads now, witnesses A.Harris and W.J.Copp and E.Copp.Joseph was 31 and Mabel was 30.on birth cert. it says father unknown on marriage cert says Joseph Rivers Dec'd Labourer!!! Just found Alfred Rivers and George in the 1901 census RG13/1135. Alfred was 69 at the time, is it likely if he was in the workhouse then that he would then be in the 1911 census as stated living with his daughter Annie Boulter at the age of 77? . Could you tell me if I would benefit from subscribing to any other particular site please. thanks Jo

Cynthia

Cynthia Report 30 Mar 2010 14:09

Am still watching this with interest and letting those with more experience work their way through it. I think it would help you though Joanne, if you took one thing at a time because it's so easy to get confused with so many names etc. There is an excellent thread on the Tips board about how to fathom things out.

When I am confused with my tree, I find it helpful to write things down and methodically work my way backwards, clarifying as I go before beginning to add to my tree.

Will continue to watch how this develops. Cx

Joanne

Joanne Report 30 Mar 2010 14:25

Hi Cynthia, I have missed you. Yes I know what you mean about writing things down, but I am now sat under a mass of paperwork Ha!! I ordered Emilys birth certt. last night so hopefully as you have all said we will then hopefully be able to find out whether she was Martha Prior? Weavens? or whomever.until then I was just browsing around,. but am going to give ourselves a break for now and get some air. please keep in touch we wouldn't have got started without you. Jo

Madmeg

Madmeg Report 30 Mar 2010 14:58

Births Jun 1912 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Richings Ellen M Rivers Swindon 5a 81

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Mar 1915 (99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Richings Violet M Rivers Swindon 5a 44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Sep 1917 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Richings Joseph E Rivers Swindon 5a 6

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Mar 1921 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RICHINGS Ernest G Rivers Swindon 5a 14

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Jun 1924 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Richings Ivy G Rivers Cricklade 5a 84

Not sure which one would be called Sissie.

Alfred is with the Richings in 1911, as posted by Annabel, so rescued from the Workhouse in his old age. My knowledge of "proper" history is rubbish, but 1901 seems to have been a popular year for people landing in the workhouse temporarily. Wonder what happened to cause that?

Madmeg

Madmeg Report 30 Mar 2010 15:22

Jo, it was Joseph Edward who was with his aunt Annie Boulter in 1911.

Madmeg

Madmeg Report 30 Mar 2010 15:43

I AM bearing in mind that you've had a lot to absorb in the last week or so, and you need to get it into order, but I had my suspicion that Minnie Rivers was also a grand-daughter of Alfred and Martha, so I had a little search for her:

1901 England Census
about Minnie Rivers
Name: Minnie Rivers
Age: 19
Estimated birth year: abt 1882
Relation: Sister
Gender: Female
Where born: Lebcombe, Berkshire, England

Civil parish: Stanford in The Vale
Ecclesiastical parish: Goosey All Saints and Stanford in the Vale St Denys
Town: Stanford in The Vale
County/Island: Berkshire
Country: England

Registration district: Faringdon
Sub-registration district: Buckland
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 137
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Batter 38 (Says Balter on the form - Boulter?)
Annie Batter 35 (Boulter) (born Woolstone)
Louisa Batter 13 (Daughter)
Minnie Rivers 19 (Sister)
John Rivers 12 (Nephew)

This nephew must be your grandfather Joseph cos there is no John Rivers, and he's born in Wantage.

So, it begs the question, was he an orphan by then?


~~~Secret Red ^^ Squirrel~~~  **007 1/2**

~~~Secret Red ^^ Squirrel~~~ **007 1/2** Report 30 Mar 2010 16:57

We had a Sophie/Sophia in our tree that was called Sissy.

Joanne

Joanne Report 30 Mar 2010 22:26

Hi. Meg. Wow you are so good. Now I have looked and looked again for Emily and still as you say find no trace of her. I think it is best if I wait for Emils birth cert. to come through because looking at Josephs it will give me mothers maiden name etc. I didn't realsie that you were not supposed to do your tree until you had all the facts right, I guess it was because we thought we had! ever been fooled Ha! i am going to spend the next few days or so trying to get some order to what seemed initially a simple quest- to find where my grandfather had come from, and where his mother ended up. Dad seems to think that for some reason when he met my Nan he MAY have told her he had no living parents? now whether that was true or no who knows. I am still having much trouble getting my head around Prior, weavens, weaven weaver. But I honestly believe its better to wait. please please can I get back in touch with you and Cynthia and annabel as soon as I have Emilys FACTS. thanks again you have all been wonderful. Jo

Cynthia

Cynthia Report 30 Mar 2010 22:29

Just add something to this thread when you have some news Joanne and we will see it because it will pop up in our threads box. Cx.

TessAkaBridgetTheFidget

TessAkaBridgetTheFidget Report 30 Mar 2010 23:34

If you can find Joseph's service records, it should give the next-of-kin, which would be his mother Emily, unless she had died. (or he had fallen out with her big time).

I hope that the certs arrive soon. All your helpers on here will be eagerly waiting to see what you find out.

As others have said, it is better to take things slowly (especially at the start). To check info on one cert, before sending for another.

Tess

Joanne

Joanne Report 31 Mar 2010 11:54

Hi Tess. My dad already tried that a long time ago, he was told unfortunately 60% of those records perished in a fire in London. Maybe I will look into it again thanks.

Madmeg

Madmeg Report 31 Mar 2010 17:36

Yes, that's true Jo.

I think you have learned two of the golden rules of research - leave no stone unturned and back it up with evidence.

I can't think what else to do about what happened to Emily.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 1 Apr 2010 02:16

So I've been invited to have a look here. Hello all!

The only thing I can think of contributing at this point is -- I wonder whether this is the Albert Belcher who married an Emily Rivers in 1897 in Wantage reg dist?

In 1901:

Name: Albert Belcher
Age: 30
Estimated birth year: abt 1871
>> Relation: Prisoner
>> Where born: Wantage, Berkshire, England
>> Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: Bricklayer's Labourer

Civil parish: St John
Town: Devizes
County/Island: Wiltshire
Registration district: Devizes
>> ED, institution, or vessel: His Majestys Prison


This is undoubtedly that Albert's wife in 1901:


Name: Emily Belcher
Age: 29
Estimated birth year: abt 1872
Relation: Head
Where born: Kingston Lisle, Berkshire, England

Civil parish: Cold Ash
Town: Cold Ash
County/Island: Berkshire
Registration district: Newbury

Emily Belcher 29
William Belcher 4
Ella Belcher 3
Minnie Belcher 1
>> Henry Rivers 26


... Not a great match ...

--- but actually:

No Emily Rivers was born in Berkshire 1867-1874 except our Emily Rivers.

Kingstone Lisle and Woolstone are both in Faringdon reg dist, about 2 miles apart.

Daughter named Minnie, too. ;)


So y'know what? It think that is our Emily Rivers.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 1 Apr 2010 02:44

If so, did she fib about her age to be younger than her husband? ;)


1911

BELCHER ALBERT E 1871 40 Newbury Berkshire
BELCHER EMILY 1872 39
BELCHER ELLA 1898 13
BELCHER WILLIAM 1898 13
BELCHER AGNES 1903 8
BELCHER ALICE 1905 6
BELCHER GEORGE 1907 4
BELCHER ARTHUR 1909 2


*If* that is the right Emily, this certainly gives a lot of names for offspring, to find their offspring, search trees at GR, etc.

... I did a really quickie search for Ella Belcher, and 2 people have Ella 1898 Wantage in their trees here at GR. The same two people have Emily Rivers 1872 Kinston Lisle, Berks. As we know, there was no such birth; that info is taken from the late censuses.


And *if* so:


Name: Emily Belcher
Death Registration Month/Year: 1918
Age at death (estimated): 49 = dob c1869
Registration district: Newbury
Inferred County: Berkshire
Volume: 2c
Page: 677

(and no death to match a later birthdate)


Thoughts? ;)


If I'm on the money, the children of Emily Rivers and Albert Belcher were half-siblings of Joseph Rivers.

The children of those children will be cousins of Joseph's son, Joanne's dad, if I'm following properly?


The Belcher-Rivers marriage certificate is needed to try to confirm this theory. But again, if I'm following properly, Emily Rivers's parents were unmarried -- so the question would be whether a father is named on the marriage certificate. Witness names and the parties' addresses could help too, though.

-- edit -- I got that wrong, both her parents are known, it's just that there's some controversy over her mother's birth surname. So the identity of the Emily Rivers on the marriage certificate should be verifiable by the father's name.


Joanne, did you get the web address for FreeBMD here? I think so, but just in case:

http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl

The marriages of the Belcher-Rivers children might not be transcribed yet, in which case Ancestry can be checked. Ancestry will certainly be needed for their children -- your dad's generation. I'm assuming that he would like to know, if he has cousins who are children of his father's half-siblings?

*IF* this theory is correct!

Cynthia

Cynthia Report 1 Apr 2010 09:14

Joanne, in case you are now wondering what's going on, let me introduce you to 'our Janey', a doyenne of GR!! She is one of the best researchers we have; is feisty but goooooood and she will put me firmly back in my place for saying so! lol Cx


ps - she's also in Canada - hence the timescale thingey.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 1 Apr 2010 15:18

Never mind your 'thoughts' on me, you. :P (that's an outstuck tongue, fyi)

I got a PM from somebody wondering what I might think of all this. I just took what was here and put it all together! At my own leisure, with all of you slumbering.

So? Whaddaya think?

Madmeg

Madmeg Report 1 Apr 2010 16:23

Well, folks, it was moi who "invited" Janey, I know when to call in the experts.

What do I think - well, she's solved it (although I did give her all the "clues" first!).

I'll pm Jo, cos I think she thinks we've given up.

Perhaps I missed a bit out, cos we believe Alfred Rivers married Martha Weavens/Weavings, and not Prior as it seems on the 1871.

So, while Janie is asleep.......

Madmeg

Madmeg Report 1 Apr 2010 16:40

Just noticed she's made brother Henry younger too.

Cynthia

Cynthia Report 1 Apr 2010 17:14

It was a good idea to bring in Sherlock, Meg. Let's hope Joanne can get to grips with it all because it's all fairly mesmerising.


As for you JC.............. :P back!! Cx.