Genealogy Chat

Just looked at some HOWE wills.

Sir G's great grandfather Edward HOWE (1819-1896). Thatcher. d Aberavon, Port Talbot. Left £150 - proven by Catherine MORGAN (wife of John MORGAN).

Sir G's grandfather Edward HOWE (1849-1896). Tinman of Port Talbot. Left £70 - proven by spinster Elizabeth Christiana HOWE.

Sir G's Father Benjamin Edward HOWE (1889-1958). Solicitor. d Port Talbot. Left £12,475 (Exec Richard Edward Geoffrey HOWE, barrister at law).

And I expect Sir G will leave more than 3d eventually.

Does that not give hope to all these youngsters without jobs or many prospects today. Here was a very ordinary family thatching roofs in the Vale till slate was preferred. They then moved to the burgeoning industrial area of Port Talbot and went into the tin works and made a living. And Sir G's dad was pushed on from this very ordinary family to go into teaching and then successfully entered the law.

And I think Sir G has been a remarkably successful and popular man (and I am certainly no Tory). Just very nice to see a Port Talbot boy do so well - without being a film star. :-D

Got a very distant link to Lloyd George on my tree (through his wife Margaret OWEN). But thought it might be interesting to just put his grandfather and siblings on this thread. They were a big family and I think quite a lot of people are closely related but don't know the connection.

Grandfather was David GEORGE, a farmer of Trecoed (1782-1828). He was the son of William GEORGE (c1747-1839), farmer of Tresinwen. All William GEORGE Tresinwen's children were born at Tresinwen Farm, Llanwnda, Pembrokeshire.

Siblings of grandfather David George (1782-1828) were Ann (Mrs Joseph OWENS, Kile, Llanwnda b 1787), John GEORGE b 1789, Timothy GEORGE, b 1789 and Mary GEORGE b 1795,

All Baptists in Pembrokeshire. Lloyd George's father was a schoolteacher and was teaching in Manchester when David was born. Not the only great Welshman to be born in England, Saunders Lewis (greatest Welsh language playwright of 20th century) was born Birkenhead and the Prince of Wales was born in London :-)

Nice little thread just started under title "Maiden Names". Family based in Glyntaff, Pontypridd in C1911 but seem to be roots all over. Plenty of South Wales interest, and strong links back to Gloucestershire - so we should be able to get stuck in the lister asks our advice. :-D

Had a quick look at Beata MOSTYN,

She and John DAVIES seem to have had 5 children at Northop:
James DAVIES - 1820
Prudence DAVIES - 1823
Peter DAVIES - 1825
Charles DAVIES - 1831
William DAVIES 1834

But must also be a George and a Daniel (see below)

C1841 in Northop has:
Beatta DAVIES, 45, widow
George M, 20
Prudence 15
Daniel 11,
Charles M, 9
William M, 7

In C1851, Charles DAVIES is living Prodigal Lane, Kelsterton. Lodging with married sister Prudence DAVIES (now married to Thomas DAVIES, 32, born Denbigh).

Next door is Peter DAVIES, 25, B Northop. All 3 men are ag labs.

I notice in C1861 that Peter DAVIES has a little girl called BERJITA.

And that baptism in Denbs might well explain why the John MOSTYN running pubs in Holywell might have ben out of county in C1841. I think he should be born Caerwys in Flints - but that is very close to Denbs border.

Hello, been away for a few days so just trying to catch up.

Lady Kira- you have found the correct family as Margaret Mostyn 1854 married william Crystal in Newcastle and Thomas Mostyn Crystal born 1884 was my g-grandfather. all occupations correct.

Interested to see that John may have located Thomas Mostyn C1800 as a brother to John Mostyn c1800 who was a miner - thought to be lead - as Thomas Mostyn who went ot Newcastle was a manager in a lead refining factory (taken from his daughters wedding certificate).

Hopefully soemthing else will turn up

Yes that is the family John. I have her marriage and children.

BERJITA. is a mistranscription of Beatta. I have reported it but FMP did not uphold it.

I have the portraits and lots of documentation about her.

It is Peter's mother Beatta Mostyn that I do not know about.

I thought it worth mentioning with the Liverpool connection.

Just done some digging into Mostyns in Northop and have a few clues and hints.

1841 Wales Census about Ester Mostyn
Name: Ester Mostyn
Age: 60
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1781
Gender: Female
Where born: Flintshire, Wales
Civil parish: Northop
Hundred: Coleshill
County/Island: Flintshire
Country: Wales
Street Address: View image
Occupation: View image
Registration district: Holywell
Sub-registration district: Flint
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1407
Book: 13
Folio: 14
Page Number: 19
Household Members:
Name Name
Ester Mostyn 60
Richard Mostyn 25
Charlot Mostyn 20
Thomas Mostyn 15

Hester and Thomas have a number of children. It is possible that Thomas is related to my Beatta


parents: Thomas Mostyn,? Esther
name: Charlotte Mostyn
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 30 Nov 1817
baptism/christening place: NORTHOP CUM FLINT,FLINT,WALES
father's name: Thomas Mostyn
mother's name: Esther
indexing project (batch) number: C06174-1
system origin: Wales-ODM
source film number: 104818


name: Thomas Mostyn
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 10 Oct 1820
baptism/christening place: NORTHOP CUM FLINT,FLINT,WALES
birth date: 22 Sep 1820
father's name: Thomas Mostyn
mother's name: Esther
indexing project (batch) number: C06174-1
system origin: Wales-ODM
source film number: 104818


name: Thomas Mostyn
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 10 Oct 1820
baptism/christening place: NORTHOP CUM FLINT,FLINT,WALES
birth date: 22 Sep 1820
father's name: Thomas Mostyn
mother's name: Esther
indexing project (batch) number: C06174-1
system origin: Wales-ODM
source film number: 104818


parents: Thomas Mostyn,? Hester
name: Richard Mostyn
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 02 Apr 1814
baptism/christening place: NORTHOP CUM FLINT,FLINT,WALES
father's name: Thomas Mostyn
mother's name: Hester
indexing project (batch) number: C06174-1
system origin: Wales-ODM
source film number: 104818

1851 Person: MOSTYN, Easter Address: Berthddu, Northop Caer-Fallwch
MOSTYN, Richard Head Married M 36 1815 Miner
Northop, Flintshire VIEW
MOSTYN, Sarah Wife F 25 1826 Miner's Wife
Llanfrene, Denbighshire VIEW
MOSTYN, Easter Daughter Unmarried F 0 (13 DAYS) 1851 Miner's Daughter
Northop, Flintshire

Georgina

I just happened to be passing Groeswen Chapel today. Magnificent building and huge graveyard.

Had a quick look round and spoke to a very nice retired lady called Mair who is going to send me some chapel records in Welsh.

It has always been an Independent (Annibynwyr) chapel and they still conduct much of service (only monthly now) in Welsh. The congregation would have been wealthy and quite large in the early days though don't know where they would have lived as it is a very small village (less than 100 pop). Mair told me they had just spent £300k on chapel.

Didn't have a chance to go inside chapel but hoping to soon.

Bw John

Ooh I was pleased to see this thread! My lot were the Roberts family of South Wales....they moved up from Sussex and Kent areas (they were gypsies so travelled around) to Pontypridd in the early 1900s where Samson Roberts and his brother Jockey Roberts ran a scrapyard. They then moved to Aberkenfig near Bridgend. I wont get further with this lot I dont think as they didnt have church marriages mostly and didnt have birth certs apart from a few of the grandkids. Did find a Will for Samson tho, surprisingly and also a newspaper obituary.

Well RomanyStar :-D

Thanks so much for that. I think I have only once seen a Romany thread in my lines, and am not sure if it was or not. But they were fairground people living in the Black Country - Raphael GREENAWAY married into my family. He was a solicitor's clerk but his father and grandfather were travelling with fairgrounds and children were in caravans.

Think I have found Sampson ROBERTS. Was he 1864-1918 and died at 43 Dunraven St, Aberkenfig. 7 children, 5 of whom survived till C1911?

And might this be brotrher Jockey in C1911 at Coytrahen nr Aberkenfig?
William ROBERTS, 41, licensed hawker, b Hastings, Sussex
Charity, wife, 39, md 19 years, 7 children, all living, b T Wells, Kent
Patience, dau, 15, b Hastings
Eleanor, 13, b Hastings
Samson, 11, b Hastings
John, 8, b Hastings
Henry, 6, b T Wells
Charity, 4, b Ledbury, HER
Absalom, 1, b Llangynwyd, GLA

Thats Jockey :-) He was eventually run over by bike when walking home from the pub drunk , and died. Your man did well then becoming a solicitors clerk. There is a Spencer Greenaway who has gypsy ancestry I believe and still lives a traveller lifestyle.

Have found Samson's grandfather on C1861 in Woodchurch in Kent. Samson aged 50 born in Stone, Kent, licensed hawker.

Have you got that?

Yes, solicitors clerk fits in well with my lot, and I was surprised to see Raphael GREENAWAY's background. And fascinated. Think they settled in a place called Swan Village in Black Country, and must have got a good education.

Bet he didn't enjoy being a solicitor's clerk and always wanted to go off in a caravan somewhere. :-)

John

Thanks so much for all your effort. I googled the Groeswen Chapel. My husband & I were actually there a few years back. At least we saw the outside. It was closed at the time. Look forward to hearing from you again if any more information is forthcoming.

Thanks again
Georgina :-)

I have Samson's grandfather in 1861 in Shirk Oak camping by the turnpike, with wife Mary and kids who had very unusual names. There was/is a whole string of Samson's, every father named Samson named his eldest son Samson. About 20 yrs difference between each. :-D The furthest I get back is 1789, the most recent Samson from this line was born in the 1980's.

RomanyStar

I expect you know all those "strange" names are Old Testament names. So the ROBERTS family were deep into religion in 1800-1850 period.

I have been looking for which denomination they might belong to. And they seem to be based in Kent, in places like Bethersden and Stone. I reckon with names like Samson, Selig and Mahalia they would be Baptists or Indpendents. I favour Baptists. Which may mean there are a load of records going back in a little Baptist cause in that area.

Georgina. Whenever I visit a chapel or church where my ggggg grandparents were married, I feel a shiver. Perhaps you and OH will feel like that when you get inside that lovely chapel. I have nobody in my family born in Glamorgan (my wife has plenty in the Vale right up to Ystradfodwg area) but I still felt a shudder at Groeswen. It is just full of tradition - and a very happy tradition, I feel sure.

I have been past Groeswen many times before. Was visiting a farm below called Cwrt-y-Celyn (where they have Quad Bikes) and the farmer told me it was a small Methodist chapel next to the pub. Not much to see, he said.

Well, pub was not much to see - but chapel (which has never been Methodist as far as I know) is really something.

John
I totally agree it does give a shiver. Also have lots of relatives that came from the Ystradfodwg area. But that is my side of the family and I am certainly not having too much trouble with most of them. The two I am having trouble with were born in England.

The pub must have been wonderful. We never even noticed it!

Bye for now
Georgina :-)

Annwyl Gyfeillion (dear friends). Time for a review of where we are, I think. Just finished having roast duck for my Sunday lunch with some Welsh friends.

Suzanne. Still nothing in Anglesey to chase unfortunately. But I have just noticed that you are also offereing to do look-ups the other side of the bridge - presumably Bangor would be ok?

Karen of Brisbane - hope we helped. Come back if there is anything else we might be able to help with.

Rose. Still not ordered that marriage certificate of Edmund Mack (reputedly born in Ynysgeidwen in 1852), Was that where John Summers had an iron works?

Amanda. Is Glace in Rads still a problem. Think we narrowed it down to probably Glascwm or Clas in St Harmons.

Georgina - original question was origins of Mary Jane MORGAN. Are we any closer?

AnnCardiff - no lookups in Whitchurch near Cardiff yet as far as I have seen. But it is a large parish (and a prosperous one for those who don't know Cardiff)

PP Many thanks for your contributions so far, Roy. As usual, a genius.

Anne and LadyKira Anything new on your MOSTYN research? Such an interesting family, and I would think you would both have a link somewhere.

Jackie in Cardiff Many thanks for your Glascwm in Rads look up. And noted that you also have Llansantffraid-yn-Elfael parish.

RomanyStar - what an exciting journey (by gypsy caravan?) from Stone in Kent to Aberkenfig. Fascinating family of several generations of licensed hawkers called Samson ROBERTS.

John

Don't think we are any closer to finding out about Mary Jane Morgan, but the side tracks are very interesting and thought prevoking. I don't intend to stop until I find something out about her. Thanks for all the help.

Georgina

Hello John-
I haven't made any further progress but have been browsing the North Wales bmd site and i have a couple of questions if you can answer them.

1- how big was Holywell in the 1800's? Is there any possiblity that all the Mostyn's in Holywell are all related?
2- Is Mold, Flintshire close enough for potentialy mostyn's there to be related?

I realise this is all circumstantial but it gives me routes to explore via the few search engines I have.

thank you to you and Lady Kira, I will keep you posted if I find more.
many thanks

Anne