Genealogy Chat

Weekend already. Must trawl through the Mary Jane Morgans and see if anything else looks likely :-D :-D

Hope you all had a good week :-)

John
Thanks for all your effort. I really appreciate it.

Georgina

Georgina Mary Jane MORGAN!! I think we may see evidence of Rowland and Megan in her background. That is why I initially got quite excited she may have been brought up by a stepfather Hopkin ROWLANDS. And although it looks as if father Thomas MORGAN is stil laive in 1914, no reason why he couldn't have died when she was a baby. Often doesn't say "deceased" on marriage certs. Actual register entry in Welsh (not arrived yet) may give a clue to that.

Think it may all fit together when we get to right one, so will slowly work through main suspects.

Think I have got those two you listed to look at in more detail on my list of 8 possibilities. Also seen birthplaces of Caerphilly, Maerdy (top of Rhondda Fach as opposed to Blaencwm at top of Rhondda Fawr), Troed y Rhiw (near Aberfan - Taff valley?). But suppose she could have been born on Mars (though not spotted any coal up there yet)

John

I keep coming back to the 1901 & 1881 census

1901
Thomas Morgan, 41, b Ystradyfodwg Glamorgan
(he is a widower at this point)
Lucy Morgan, daughter, 20, b Ystrad
Mary Morgan, 7
Rebecca Morgan 11
Thomas Morgan 16
Rebecca Walters, 72, mother in law b Llanwrdra Carmarthen

1881 shows Thomas married to
Rebecca, 21, born 1860

But in this one Thomas is born in Blaenycwm Treherbert.

In both he is shown as a coal miner & that is his occupation on the Marriage certificate of Mary & David. However, it only shows Mary (no Jane) on the 1901 census.

The 2nd one I have is:
1901
Thomas Morgan 32, b Brynaman Glam - Tin Plate Weigher
Rachel Morgan 28 b Cwmamman Carm
Mary J Morgan 7, b Brynaman Glam
Muriel Morgan 5, b Brynaman Glam
Edna Morgan 1 b Brynaman Glam

They also appear in the 1911 census along with 2 more children
Harriet Morgan 6, Brynamman Glam
Elgar Morgan 2 months, Brynamman Glam

There are several more, but without knowing Thomas' wife's name or at least the siblings, I just don't know!!! :-(

Onward.

Georgina

Georgina

Have picked out a further 9 Mary Jane MORGANS to pursue.

But first one caught my eye and wonder what you think.

C1901 Kenfig Hill
Hopkin ROWLANDS, 33, b Ogmore Vale
Mary Ann, wife, 32, b Ogmore Vale
Mary Jane MORGAN, dau, 8, b Aberavon
Elizabeth M ROWLANDS, dau, 4, b Aberavon
Annie May ROWLANDS, dau, 1, b Port Talbot

Hopkin ROWLANDS married Mary Ann MORGANS (sic) in Dec q 1893 Neath

In C1891 there is a childless couple in Llangyfelach near Swansea. Thomas MORGANS, 23 and Mary Ann MORGANS 21. But she is born Morriston. And cannot find suitable death for Thomas either about 1894 aged 27. :-(

Hi John,

Yep still don't know the answer, but Jackie kindly ruled out Glascwm.

Probably somewhere in Radnorshire but Davies isn't going to be easy.

I do wonder if those with the same surname where you found her in 1841 are her siblings

Kind regards
Amanda

Thanks John

I shall keep looking also.

Georgina

Georgina Will have another look at Mary Jane Morgan this week. Quite a problem. Possibly elimination of all the wrong Mary Jane's might help.

Anne Holywell was a big parish. In 1831, 8969. Holywell was one of the "ancient parishes" of Flintshire. It originally comprised the townships of Holywell, Brynford, Bagillt Fawr, Bagillt Fechan, Calcot, Coleshill Fawr, Coleshill Fechan, Greenfield, Stokyn and Wellstone (or Trefynnon).

In 1901, it was 4972. But much of that was because a new Bagillt parish took the Bagillts and Coleshills away from Holywell. And I think Wellstone went into Brynford parish.

I feel sure MOSTYN is not a common name. So, yes, they may all be related. The main MOSTYN family were Roman Catholics and Holywell is still a Catholic pilgrimage centre - coaches, particularly from Merseyside. But all major Protestant denominations are there also.

Mold is very close. 8 minutes by car, less than an hour's walk. My wife's great grandfather managed lead mines in that area. He lived in Holywell, but would often walk to Ruthin and back via Mold in a day's work, visiting his mines. Probably 5 hours walking in typical 14 hour day. Less hours on Saturdays. Never worked Sundays. And he took 2 days holiday a year, when he went to Llandrindod to "take the waters". This was from 1870 till about 1920, though he had a pony and trap in latter years :-D

Hello John-
I haven't made any further progress but have been browsing the North Wales bmd site and i have a couple of questions if you can answer them.

1- how big was Holywell in the 1800's? Is there any possiblity that all the Mostyn's in Holywell are all related?
2- Is Mold, Flintshire close enough for potentialy mostyn's there to be related?

I realise this is all circumstantial but it gives me routes to explore via the few search engines I have.

thank you to you and Lady Kira, I will keep you posted if I find more.
many thanks

Anne

John

Don't think we are any closer to finding out about Mary Jane Morgan, but the side tracks are very interesting and thought prevoking. I don't intend to stop until I find something out about her. Thanks for all the help.

Georgina

Annwyl Gyfeillion (dear friends). Time for a review of where we are, I think. Just finished having roast duck for my Sunday lunch with some Welsh friends.

Suzanne. Still nothing in Anglesey to chase unfortunately. But I have just noticed that you are also offereing to do look-ups the other side of the bridge - presumably Bangor would be ok?

Karen of Brisbane - hope we helped. Come back if there is anything else we might be able to help with.

Rose. Still not ordered that marriage certificate of Edmund Mack (reputedly born in Ynysgeidwen in 1852), Was that where John Summers had an iron works?

Amanda. Is Glace in Rads still a problem. Think we narrowed it down to probably Glascwm or Clas in St Harmons.

Georgina - original question was origins of Mary Jane MORGAN. Are we any closer?

AnnCardiff - no lookups in Whitchurch near Cardiff yet as far as I have seen. But it is a large parish (and a prosperous one for those who don't know Cardiff)

PP Many thanks for your contributions so far, Roy. As usual, a genius.

Anne and LadyKira Anything new on your MOSTYN research? Such an interesting family, and I would think you would both have a link somewhere.

Jackie in Cardiff Many thanks for your Glascwm in Rads look up. And noted that you also have Llansantffraid-yn-Elfael parish.

RomanyStar - what an exciting journey (by gypsy caravan?) from Stone in Kent to Aberkenfig. Fascinating family of several generations of licensed hawkers called Samson ROBERTS.

John
I totally agree it does give a shiver. Also have lots of relatives that came from the Ystradfodwg area. But that is my side of the family and I am certainly not having too much trouble with most of them. The two I am having trouble with were born in England.

The pub must have been wonderful. We never even noticed it!

Bye for now
Georgina :-)

RomanyStar

I expect you know all those "strange" names are Old Testament names. So the ROBERTS family were deep into religion in 1800-1850 period.

I have been looking for which denomination they might belong to. And they seem to be based in Kent, in places like Bethersden and Stone. I reckon with names like Samson, Selig and Mahalia they would be Baptists or Indpendents. I favour Baptists. Which may mean there are a load of records going back in a little Baptist cause in that area.

Georgina. Whenever I visit a chapel or church where my ggggg grandparents were married, I feel a shiver. Perhaps you and OH will feel like that when you get inside that lovely chapel. I have nobody in my family born in Glamorgan (my wife has plenty in the Vale right up to Ystradfodwg area) but I still felt a shudder at Groeswen. It is just full of tradition - and a very happy tradition, I feel sure.

I have been past Groeswen many times before. Was visiting a farm below called Cwrt-y-Celyn (where they have Quad Bikes) and the farmer told me it was a small Methodist chapel next to the pub. Not much to see, he said.

Well, pub was not much to see - but chapel (which has never been Methodist as far as I know) is really something.

I have Samson's grandfather in 1861 in Shirk Oak camping by the turnpike, with wife Mary and kids who had very unusual names. There was/is a whole string of Samson's, every father named Samson named his eldest son Samson. About 20 yrs difference between each. :-D The furthest I get back is 1789, the most recent Samson from this line was born in the 1980's.

John

Thanks so much for all your effort. I googled the Groeswen Chapel. My husband & I were actually there a few years back. At least we saw the outside. It was closed at the time. Look forward to hearing from you again if any more information is forthcoming.

Thanks again
Georgina :-)

Have found Samson's grandfather on C1861 in Woodchurch in Kent. Samson aged 50 born in Stone, Kent, licensed hawker.

Have you got that?

Yes, solicitors clerk fits in well with my lot, and I was surprised to see Raphael GREENAWAY's background. And fascinated. Think they settled in a place called Swan Village in Black Country, and must have got a good education.

Bet he didn't enjoy being a solicitor's clerk and always wanted to go off in a caravan somewhere. :-)

Thats Jockey :-) He was eventually run over by bike when walking home from the pub drunk , and died. Your man did well then becoming a solicitors clerk. There is a Spencer Greenaway who has gypsy ancestry I believe and still lives a traveller lifestyle.

Well RomanyStar :-D

Thanks so much for that. I think I have only once seen a Romany thread in my lines, and am not sure if it was or not. But they were fairground people living in the Black Country - Raphael GREENAWAY married into my family. He was a solicitor's clerk but his father and grandfather were travelling with fairgrounds and children were in caravans.

Think I have found Sampson ROBERTS. Was he 1864-1918 and died at 43 Dunraven St, Aberkenfig. 7 children, 5 of whom survived till C1911?

And might this be brotrher Jockey in C1911 at Coytrahen nr Aberkenfig?
William ROBERTS, 41, licensed hawker, b Hastings, Sussex
Charity, wife, 39, md 19 years, 7 children, all living, b T Wells, Kent
Patience, dau, 15, b Hastings
Eleanor, 13, b Hastings
Samson, 11, b Hastings
John, 8, b Hastings
Henry, 6, b T Wells
Charity, 4, b Ledbury, HER
Absalom, 1, b Llangynwyd, GLA

Ooh I was pleased to see this thread! My lot were the Roberts family of South Wales....they moved up from Sussex and Kent areas (they were gypsies so travelled around) to Pontypridd in the early 1900s where Samson Roberts and his brother Jockey Roberts ran a scrapyard. They then moved to Aberkenfig near Bridgend. I wont get further with this lot I dont think as they didnt have church marriages mostly and didnt have birth certs apart from a few of the grandkids. Did find a Will for Samson tho, surprisingly and also a newspaper obituary.

Georgina

I just happened to be passing Groeswen Chapel today. Magnificent building and huge graveyard.

Had a quick look round and spoke to a very nice retired lady called Mair who is going to send me some chapel records in Welsh.

It has always been an Independent (Annibynwyr) chapel and they still conduct much of service (only monthly now) in Welsh. The congregation would have been wealthy and quite large in the early days though don't know where they would have lived as it is a very small village (less than 100 pop). Mair told me they had just spent £300k on chapel.

Didn't have a chance to go inside chapel but hoping to soon.

Bw John