Genealogy Chat

David Lewis was definitely born in Sennybridge Breconshire in 1887. Have his birth certificate. I knew White Cross was near Senghenydd (I was born there as was my husband) & Abertridwr is the next village along. As I mentioned, Mary Jane Morgan was living at Groeswen at the time of her marriage to David Lewis.

Thanks for the Mary Jane info, but it's not the correct one. Mary Jane Morgan became Mary Jane Lewis in 1914.

She was still alive in 1945 as she registered my husband's birth. Other than that, she is a complete mystery. It grieves me that no one seems to know anything about her.

Thanks
Georgina

G'morning, Georgina

Yes, Mary Jane is a much biggrer enigma that I thought at first. When I went to bed last night, I thought I had found both your Mary Jane and your David LEWIS in Senghennydd/Groeswen area in C1911. Eureka!

But then I realised her father's name was Thomas, and not Josiah. And he was a coal miner, not an estate agent. And the David I found was born in Abertridwr with father Lewis LEWIS.

So back to drawing board. Were Mary Jane's children called anything unusual? By LIcense on marriage cert? Was one of them living a distance away from Groeswen? Cannot find any of 3 witnesses to 1914 marriage on C1911 in that area (Jennie PHILLIPS, Mary (?) WATKINS and Edward JONES). Was Mary Jane 20yo when she maried? Does it give age of David LEWIS?

Never been in that Senghennydd area, but Roy Noble was talking about it very fondly on his radio progarmme a few weeks ago. Think he must have spent some time there as he was very familiar with people and places.

Georgina :-)
Just had a quick look for these 3 marriage witnesses at 1914 wedding to see if any clues there. Possible the WATKINS and the Jennie PHILLIPS could be sisters of Mary Jane, but those I saw this morning were all single in C1911 and all living fairly local to Groeswen, I believe.
Jenny PHILLIPS, 16, famer's daughter - living with parents at Hendredenny Ganol Farm Penyrheol
Edward JONES, 19, coal miner, b Cefn Merthyr, lodging at 46 Stanley St, Senghennydd
Miraim Gwen WATKINS, 19, single, living with parents Wm and Miriam WATKINS (father a colliery official) at 26 Church Road, Abertridwr.

Have been knocking off some Mary Jane MORGANs in C1911. One that caught my eye was in Mountain Ash, a servant to a Morgan MORGAN, 56, land agent. Just thought it vaguely possible she could have been Morgan's niece and Thomas, her father, may have been brother of Morgan MORGAN. But very long shot. Am assuming your Mary Jane was a spinster at marriage and born in Wales - but I guess that is just assumption :-S

Good morning

David Lewis was 27 & Mary Jane 20. Their children were Rowland Llewellyn 1915, Meagan 1917, John Cynlais 1922 & Thomas 1925. The marriage certificate shows David as living at 98 Thomas St Abertridwr & Mary Jane on a farm in Groeswen. I can't quite make out what it says. It looks like Tor_trcharne Farm Groeswen???

Yes, Mary Jane was a spinster & born in Wales, Glamorgan I think.

I really appreciate all the help

Georgina

Have you considered contacting the local family history society to see if they can help you identify that farm?
It might give you more background about her, even if of no actual help.

Georgina
What was name of father of David?
On Free BMD it gives maiden name of mother of Rowland Llewelyn LEWIS as LLEWELYN. All others are MORGAN. Presumably a mistake or mistranscription? :-S

Is this the 1915 birth?

Births Mar 1915

Lewis Rowland L Llewellyn Pontypridd 11a 1158

I checked the image and it is not mistranscribed


Roy

Many thanks Roy :-) Very interesting. It may just be that the informant got mixed up when registering birth.

Their are a couple of possible marriages for a female Llewellyn to a male Lewis registered in Pontypridd that would fit the Rowland L Lewis birth with mmn Llewellyn

and also other births

Births Mar 1913

Lewis Frederick Llewellyn Pontypridd 11a 1435

Births Dec 1914

Lewis John H Llewellyn Pontypridd 11a 1299

Births Mar 1915

Lewis Rowland L Llewellyn Pontypridd 11a 1158

Births Dec 1916

Lewis Agnes Llewellyn Pontypridd 11a 1186

Births Sep 1918

Lewis Howell W L Llewellyn Pontypridd 11a 12[8_]0
Births Jun 1920

Lewis Benjamin G Llewellyn Pontypridd 11a 1187
Lewis Gwladys V Llewellyn Pontypridd 11a 1194

Based on this it looks like the Rowland L Lewis mmn Llewellyn birth in 1915 would require the birth cert before it could be accepted as the child of David and Mary Jane


Roy

Roy

Interesting that list of births. Georgina seem quite clear that eldest child is Rowland Llewelyn LEWIS born 1915 mmn MORGAN, so probably a mistake somewhere. But we shall see.

Notice third child has middle name Cynlais. Might that suggest a connection with Ystradgynlais (BRE). Also noticed a marriage of a Thomas MORGAN to Sarah LLEWELYN in Pontypridd Sept 1879Q (Mary Jane's father was Thomas MORGAN)

And a little baby born and died in Llanelli (Llanelly) in June Q 1871 named Rowland Llewellyn MORGAN.

Lots of farms involved, so they seem farming families even though they became miners. No idea about that farm in Groeswen - Tor_tchaar?. Just looked in A-Z and nothing similar. But Groeswen seems to cover a large area and there are loads of farms up there (up above Tesco Upper Boat and Nant Garw Industrial Estate on A470)

I think with the Rowland Llewellyn Lewis birth record that his mother thought they said middle name rather than married name. As I am pretty sure this is the correct one. He married in 1940 & died in 1969 in Weston Super Mare England. That record lists his birth date as January 30, 1915. I have since run across a few more relatives that put the wrong maiden name on birth records. Incidently, most of the family used to spell his name Roland.

His father David Lewis' father was Llewellyn born 1856.

Hadn't thought about trying to find out about the farm Mary Jane lived at. That's another avenue to explore.

I really appreciate everyone's help.
Thanks
Georgina

Georgina

Long past my bedtime, but notice that father and grandfather of David LEWIS (Llewelyn and Daniel) were both master cordwainers born in Ystradgynlais. So it would have been "Cynlais" as a middle name after where the LEWIS family came from.

So it seems that Rowland and Megan may be names that are important on Mary Jane MORGAN's side of family

Georgina, The only way to prove your theory is to buy the birth cert

to assume that the question in relation to her name was misheard/understood is very week at best I thought her (the mothers) middle name was Jane?

Edited



Roy

John

Perhaps you are right about the Cynlais. I did wonder about that myself. I guess that will be the next logical thing to do, buy the birth cert. They did seem to carry names on from the generation before moreso than we do.

Your suggestions have all been very helpful & have given more paths to follow.

Thanks very much
Georgina

Georgina

I wonder if religion was important to the MORGAN and LEWIS families. If they married in Groeswen Chapel, was it the famous chapel built by Rev Hywel HARRIES in 1742 at start of Great Awakening in Wales?

Have been looking at all the Old Testament names of the LEWIS clan down in Ystradgynlais and I would expect them to be Calvinist Methodists or Independents (Annibynwyr). That might account for the name ROWLANDS, as Rev Daniel ROLANTS (ROWLANDS) was a major figure in the Awakening of 18th century and was from Llangeitho. Rev Hywel HARRIES was from Trefecca (near Brecon) and Rev Wm Williams Pantycelyn ("Bread of Heaven) was in that broad area.

David LEWIS was born in Sennybridge area, but not 100% sure it was the actual village. He states Senny on censuses and this is on Genuki - SENNY, a hamlet in the parish and hundred of Devynnock, county Brecon, 8 miles S.W. of Brecknock, on river Senny." Senny [67A] - Aber-Senny-isaf, Aber-Senny-uchaf, Beiliau, Blaen-Senny, Brychgoed, Castell-Madoc, Cefn-fedw, Cefn-fedw-fawr, Garn-lwyd, Garn-wen, Gelliau, Heol Senni, Llwyn-llydan, Maes-Walter, Neuadd, Pant-glas, Pant-y-ffordd, Tyle-gawr, Tyle-glas, Wern-fawr
Senny - Fforest-fawr [67B] - Senny

Senny seems to be a few miles south of Sennybridge.

Possible that both David LEWIS and Mary Jane MORGAN's families knew each other and were CM families. Chapel life was still quite strong and it was how people met. Do you think they may have met at Groeswen Chapel - or before down in Ystradgynlais, Senny, Cray area?

Can someone point me in right direction.

Many years ago I pursued a family rumour that my mil's great grandma Charlotte HOWE (1832-1901) dau of Thomas HOWE b c 1790 and Hannah WILLIAMS b 1794 was related to Sir Geoffrey - now Lord Howe.

Sir Geoffrey kindly replied and sent me his hand written HOWE tree. I can remember seeing that his gt grandfather was a thatcher (sic) in the Vale amusingly but his father and his grandfather were solicitors - in Port Talbot/Cowbridge area, I think.

Area and occupations (and physical appearance) told me there was a possibility mil (still going well at 95) and Sir Richard Edward Geoffrey HOWE (birth registered Port Talbot in Mar 1927Q and also still going well) may be third or fourth cousins. But genealogy was much harder then, and I gave up eventually - even though I had a very kind "keep going" letter from Sir Geoffrey personally. He was very interested in his HOWE roots and is a very nice and approachable man.

Can anyone direct me to his father and/of grandfather on censuses please so I can confirm his Welsh background. Otherwise I have got to dig and dig to look for his tree. Be nice to follow that serach up some 20 years later, now we have all this new genalogical info so readily available to us.

John

I've no idea about the religious aspect. But it is a possibility. You're right, chapel life was very important back then. So it is a good possibilty they met there.

I realized that by Sennybridge, it took in a wider area and I took that into account while I was researching David.

For some time after they married, they lived in Groeswen as on my father in law's birth certificate, it says he was born at Groeswen Cottages and that was in 1922.

It seems the more I learn, the more complicated it gets!!!! Fun though.

Thanks
Georgina :-)

John, Just some basic info on Geoffrey to get started with the search

Is this Sir Geoffrey Howe's father's marriage and census details

Marriages Dec 1923
Howe Benjamin E Thomson Cardiff 11a 836
Thomson Eliza F Howe Cardiff 11a 836
Thomson Lili F Howe Cardiff 11a 836

their are two transcriptions for his wife however on checking the image only Lili F Thomson appears on that index so i have no idea why one transcriber listed it as Eliza F Thomson

Lilly was a nickname for Eliza

I could not find a Lili F on the 1911 but i did find the Eliza F see below


1911 census, Free on at the moment on ancestry
Name: Benjamin Edward Howe
Age in 1911: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Civil parish: Margam
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Street Address: 12 Plough Terrace Port Talbot
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Law Student
Registration district: Neath
Registration District Number: 592
Sub-registration district: Margam
ED, institution, or vessel: 08
Household schedule number: 14
Piece: 32601
Household Members: Name Age
Edward Howe 62 born Parish of Margam, Glamorgan
Hannah Howe 60 born Swansea,
Elizabeth Christianna Howe 25 Occupation: Elementary School Teacher
Benjamin Edward Howe 22

they are listed as married 27 years 4 children born and 2 died

I note that father Edward, Geoffrey's grand father has listed his Occupation as a Tin Plate Worker and not as indicated in your post that he was a solicitors but check the image because i'm not sure that the last word is worker? looks more like tinplate Assorter?

Possible mother?wife of Benjamin
Name: Eliza Florence Thomson
Age in 1911: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1895
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Cardiff
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Street Address: 53 Ninian Road Cardiff
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Book-keeper
Registration district: Cardiff
Registration District Number: 588
Sub-registration district: East Cardiff
ED, institution, or vessel: 01
Household schedule number: 14
Piece: 32068
Household Members: Name Age
Richard Thomson 48 born: Castleton, Roxburghshire Occupation: Managing Director
Annie Flarence Thomson 42 born Llantaglos, Cornwall
Morgaret Eather Thomson 16 born Liverpool
Eliza Florence Thomson 16
May Thomson 15 born Liverpool

married 17 years 3 children born and 3 still living

Also a possible sister on the index for Geoffrey
Births Dec 1924

Howe Annie B E Thomson Neath 11a 1614

Lord Howe describes himself as quarter Scottish, quarter Cornish and half Welsh

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Howe#Early_life

So could Annie Florence Thomson 42 born Llantaglos, Cornwall be that Cornish link?

and Richard Thomson 48 born: Castleton, Roxburghshire be that Scottish link?



Roy

Roy, many many thanks :-D
Knew you were a genius. Will have a good look at that tonight and try and find that old tree Sir Geoffrey sent me about 20 years ago.
Yes, I noticed he was quarter Scottish and a quarter Cornish and half Welsh (was it on Wikipedia it said that). What a lovely Celtic mixture. But on the HOWE side his roots are deeply embedded in the Vale of Glamorgan, and not a lot of people know that.
Will try to sort out all my notes and see if anyone can sort out if there is any connection between Charlotte HOWE on my tree and his ancestors

HI John. have just seen your post and wondered if anyone can help in my search for my g-g-grandmother paternal family. My gg-grandmother was born in 1854 in Newcastle. Her father was a Thomas Mostyn and on the 1861 census said he was born in Holywell, Clywd, Flintshire. I have no other information about him, except on the 1841 census I have found what I think is him in Wales aged 15 with his parents and siblings. His father I think was John (a publican) and his mother Elizabeth. This thomas lived Chester st with Edward, John,Margaret and elizabeth Hughes. I cannot find him on the 1851 census.

I don't know if anyone can help me further to link my Thomas Mostyn form Newcastle (1861) to thomas Mostyn from Holywell.
any advice is much appreciated.
thank you
Anne