Genealogy Chat

Hello Anne

Thought your query would be relativley (sic) easy. MOSTYN in Holywell - Talacre Hall, easy. But not.:-(

Not even sure of pub John MOSTYN ran. Just for clarity, here is C1841 in Chester St, Holywell (Chester St runs east from the High St up towards the new hospital and Stamford Arms):
John MOSTYN, 40, publican, not born in county
Elizabeth MOSTYN, 40, yes
Edward MOSTYN, 15, app cooper, yes
Thomas MOSTYN , 15, ggg grandfather of Anne, yes
Margaret MOSTYN, 13, yes
John MOSTYN, son, 1, yes
Elizabeth HUGHES, 80, Independent yes (line between so may not be Elizabeth's mother)

All bt Holywell (am assuming parish church) - Edward 19 Oct 1823, Thomas, 15 Jan 1826, Margaret 3 Feb 1828, John the First 29 Apr 1832 (died 11 May 1837), John the Second, 2 Feb 1840

There is a Thomas MOSTYN bt St Pauls, Liverpool 1800 (Thomas/Elizabeth) which sounds a possible place for John to have been born. But he could have been born anywhere - just not in Flintshire, and not in Talacre Hall, the ancestral seat of the MOSTYN family.

Will have a think and see if I can add anything useful later. Many thanks for problem, Anne. Nice one :-D

Not much to add, Anne. Will look again tomorrow and others may see a clue or two.

It looks like John MOSTYN was born in Caerwys in c1800. No idea why it says out of county in C1841 - deffo Flintshire, not far from Holywell.

As you probably know, John is publican at Roebuck on Brynford St. in C1861. That again is right in centre of Holywell, on the hill that goes to traffic lights on Fron Parc Road. Just him and his wife Elizabeth, both 60. Think Elizabeth died 1871. No, cannot find them in C1851 at all yet.

I think this might be his brother though:
C1851 Tre Dre, Caerwys
Thomas MOSTYN, 48, miner (prob lead), b Caerwys
Sarah, wife, 33, b Bodfari
Margaret , dau, 2, b Caerwys
John Lloyd, son, 1, b Caerwys
Benjamin, son, 3 weeks, b Caerwys

Names, places, all seem to fit to me. Wonder if anyone has access to any Caerwys records to see if baptisms in C1800 and c1803 for John and Thomas MOSTYN, poss brothers.

Thanks for this John- I do wonder (positive) if it is the correct family because my Thoms Mostyn has a daughter born in Newcastle in 1854 called Margaret Mostyn. Thomas was in 1861 a manager in a iron factory- I am doing this from memory as I have just re-joined genes and it has all changed and i have not got my head around it! I think from what I have just found- 1861 census that John (c1800) Mostyn was the publican at the Roe buck pub.Thomas Mostyn has been a family name in each generation until my brother's birth. Also in general search I found on census' John Mostyn born Holywell c1840 in Newcastle area but he was a decorator or handy man of sorts. It looks like I may be on the correct family - I hope- but would so like to crack the Mostyn family as I was born in Towyn. My g-g-grandmother always said that she was descended from THE MOSTYN family in Holywell???? maybe delusions- who knows!
Many thanks for helping with this
Anne

Anne

It is certainly strange to see the surname MOSTYN applied to fairly ordinary folk in Holywell area. I think you do have right family - I reckon father of Margaret Mostyn (Thomas b 1826) died in Newcastle ( I was going to put he died in Newcastle Brown) at end of 1861, not long after Westgate census. Only 35 when he died.

Am suggesting other Thomas b 1803 Caerwys was Margaret's great uncle and John b c1800 Caerwys was her grandfather. And the painter & decorator will be John the Second b 1840

Depends what type of person your g g grandmother was. If Margaret was like Hyacinth Bucket, I would tend to dismiss the connection. But if she was not snobby in any way, she may have known there was a link but not what it was.

Could be a minor MOSTYN line who fell on hardish times, could have been a "wrong side of the blanket" relationship. But certainly interesting to pursue. Most people in that area had Christian names for surnames (Jones, Williams, Thomas etc) so to be called MOSTYN (presumably after place or important family) is interesting

Hi All.

I have a copy of the Parish Registars of GLASCWM Radnorshire. Powys
Mixed register 1681-1809
Christenings 1813-1901
Marriages 1813-1901
Burials 1813-1901
Marriage Banns

ALSO
Parish Registers of LLANSANTFFRAID-YN-ELFAEL Radnorshire. Powys
Mixed register 1701-1764
Baptisms 1765-1901
Marriages 1768-1901
Burials 1765-1901

I'm willing to do look ups for people. It's probably best to send me a personal message incase the request gets lost in this thread.


I've just had a look through the Glascwm registers for Eliza Davies (Amanda's request) and there was no sign of Eliza or her father Thomas.

Jackie

Jackie :-) Many thanks for the offer and look-up. Would it be in the church records if they were chapel? Not sure - sometimes chapel folk did then in Church in Wales to be "proper".

Possibly Clas in St Harmons parish is the one to chase for Glace (now if you have heard of cynghannedd, I reckon I have just accidentally given you an example in English :-D

Found out a bit more about Sir Geoffrey HOWE' male antecedents.

His great grandfather was Edward HOWE, yes a thatcher :-) Bt Tabenacle & Bethel Independent Coychurch Higher on 22 July 1819. Parents John and Christiana nee JOHN.

GG grandfather appears to be John HOW bt 1786 St Hilary. Also a thatcher. Parents John and Cecily. Siblings Cecily (bt St Hilary 1789), Priscilla (bt St Hilary 1793) and Mary bt Colwinston 1791)

On my tree, Charlotte HOWE (g gmother of my mil) was born 1832 Llanilid and bt 1 Dec 1833 at Maendy Independent, Llanblethian. Her parents Thomas HOWE and mother Hannah WILLIAMS married at Llantrisant (parish church, I think) on 12 Oct 1811.

Thomas HOWE (her father) appears to have been a woollen manufacturer in a smallish way in Cowbridge but he is dead by 1851 and cannot find him in 1841. But there appear to be two likely baptisms for him on IGI. One at Cowbridge 1794 (parents Robert and Ann) and a second at St Hilary 1790 (parents William and Anne).

So HOWEs about that? Link does seem strong possibility, as one or two have said in family. And every little clue (however insignificant it seems) might just unravel this one. I will let Lord Howe know if we find anything for him. :-) And I am very keen to know more about Charlotte's parenst and possible siblings.

Ann

This would fit with John and Elizabeth


Grooms Last Name:Mostyn
Grooms First Name:John
Grooms Parish:Holywell
Brides Last Name:Hughes
Brides First Name:Elizabeth
Brides Parish:Holywell
Brides Age:
County:Flintshire
Place / Parish:Bagillt
Marriage Year:1822
Marriage Month:Dec
Marriage Day:21
Record source:Flint marriages - Transcripts
Data provider:Welsh Archive Services / Gwasanaethau Archifau Cymru

Lady Kira

That looks right to me. Fits ages of children to a tee. And it looks as if the Elizabeth HUGHES (80, Independent) in C1841 could be the mother of John MOSTYN's wife Elizabeth.

For benefit of those who do not know Holywell, Bagillt is Flint direction from Holywell - but not far from Holywell at all. And intriguingly close to Talacre Hall and THE Mostyn family.

Hi All,

I have sent Jackie a PM to thank her so much for helping me.

Kind regards
Amanda

John, Your Thomas Howe father to Charlotte

You have two possible baptisms for him, One is at St Hilary 1790

You also say He appears to be dead by 1851 but cannot find him on the 1841 census

could this be His death/burial?

County Glamorganshire
Place St Hilary
Church Parish Church
RegisterNumber
BurialDate 09 Oct 1835
Forename Thomas
Relationship
Rel1MaleForename
Rel1FemaleForename
Rel1Surname
Surname HOWE
Age 44
Abode
Notes
FileNumber 25655

also just for info here is the 1881 for Sir Geoffrey's grandad Edward as posted on the 1911 above he is listed as Tinman and his dad Is Edward the Thatcher

Name: Edward Howe
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Edward Howe
Mother's Name: Rachel Howe
Gender: Male
Where born: Taibach, Glamorgan, Wales the 1911 lists him as born Parish of Margam?

Civil parish: Aberavon
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales

Street Address: Richard Street
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: Tinman

Registration district: Neath
Sub-registration district: Margam
ED, institution, or vessel: 9a
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 5335
Folio: 106
Page Number: 16
Household Members: Name Age
Edward Howe 61 born: St Brides, Glamorgan Occupation: Thatcher
Rachel Howe 58
Edward Howe 32
Sarah Howe 25




Roy

Roy, Look forward to seing you at next Mensa meeting.

I reckon that will be the one. Thomas HOWE's widow was running a small woolllen factory in Cowbridge in C1851. If he was 44 in 1835, that would possibly tie in with the St Hilary baptism in 1790 in St Hilary (William and Anne HOWE).

Had no idea where St Hilary was - but it looks as if you could throw the proverbial stone from Cowbridge and hit the village.

So Sir Geoffrrey HOWE's ancestor was JOHN HOWE (thatcher) bt St Hilary 1786 (parents John and Cecily). And my wife's ancestor was possibly Thomas HOWE bt St Hilary 1790 (parents William and Anne)

If Sir Geoffrey is not her Uncle Geoffrey, I will eat my hat - and it is a large top hat as befitting my station in life ;-) I have to say, she couldn't care less, though she does like Sir Geoffrey.

John, Just to really make your day take a look at this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Hilary,_Vale_of_Glamorgan

Roy :-D

Roy :-D
Many thanks. Population of St Hilary - 146 in 1845. So very likely he is Uncle Geoffrey HOWE.

Main surnames in that area are interesting. BASSETTS were big landowners right through C19th and employed quite a lot of the girls on my tree in service as dairy maids, cooks etc. And my mil's twin brother (born 1917 like her but died over 10 years ago - unlike mil who is still rattling along) had the Christian names John Treharne, and his grandma was born a Miss TREHARN. But I don't think our family were very closely connected to the TREHARN family. Though I rather think that this importnat St Hilary family may connect to a recent/current High Sherriff of Glamorgan Sir Treharne TREHARNE (so good they named him twice) :-D

Their are two entries for Thomas's wife Hannah the second gives her abode as Cowbridge


Glamorganshire
Place St Hilary
Church Parish Church
RegisterNumber
BurialDate 30 Mar 1871
Forename Hannah
Relationship
Rel1MaleForename
Rel1FemaleForename
Rel1Surname
Surname HOWE
Age 77
Abode
Notes
FileNumber 25655


County Glamorganshire
Place St Hilary
Church Parish Church
RegisterNumber
BurialDate 30 Mar 1871
Forename Hannah
Relationship
Rel1MaleForename
Rel1FemaleForename
Rel1Surname
Surname HOWE
Age 77
Abode Cowbridge
Notes
FileNumber 25590

GRO info to go with the death
Deaths Mar 1871

Howe Hannah 78 Bridgend 11a 337

BRIDGEND REGISTRATION DISTRICT
Registration County : Glamorganshire.
Created : 1.7.1837 (originally "Bridgend & Cowbridge").
Abolished : 1.10.1970 (to become Mid Glamorgan registration district).
Sub-districts : Bridgend, Cowbridge, Maesteg, Mid Glamorgan, Ogmore.
GRO volumes : XXVI (1837–51), 11a (1852–1946), 8B (1946–70).
Registers now held by : Bridgend, Rhondda Cynon Taf and Vale of Glamorgan




Roy

Thank you to John and Ladykira for what you have found.

My Margaret Mostyn (b1854 Newcastle) I don't know for sure, but I do not feel she was a 'Hyacinth Bucket' as when she married my g-g-grandfather William Crystal she was diswoned by her father as it was considered she married beneath her. They apparantly had a very volatile relationship and despite many children separated on many occassions!

The information that Ladykira found on the marriage and which indicates that Elizabeth Hughes aged 80 and independent on the 1841 census was a relation is interesting as to be of independent means in those days meant you came from a certain class.
It certainly is interesting to persue this line so I need to find out about John Mostyn and Elizabeth Hughes' background. I would be extemely grateful if anyone with free access any welsh archives could look at. I have tried via genes and IGI but have always met a dead end.
Your help has been much appreciated
many thanks
Anne

Please confirm your Margaret was born 1854. The only Margaret Mostyn 1854 showing up on FMP is from Talacre Hall.

I am particularly interested as I have Beatta Mostyn born c1795.

I have just 2 records for her as it is frequently mistanscribed.

John Davies
England, Marriages, 1538–1973
marriage: 09 Jul 1815 Saint Nicholas,?Liverpool,?Lancashire,?England
spouse: Beata Mostyn
groom's name: John Davies
bride's name: Beata Mostyn
marriage date: 09 Jul 1815
marriage place: Saint Nicholas,Liverpool,Lancashire,England
indexing project (batch) number: M00599-2
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 93839, 93840, 93841

1841 Address: Kelsterton, Northop, Kelsterton
DAVIES, Bealla W F 45 1796 Flintshire
DAVIES, Gorge M 20 1821 Flintshire
DAVIES, Prudence F 15 1826 Flintshire
DAVIES, Danieel M 11 1830 Flintshire
DAVIES, Charles M 9 1832 Flintshire
DAVIES, William M 7 1834 Flintshire

As you can see she is just up the road from Holywell.

I also have Mostyn as a middle name in some of mine. Quite a few of those.

I have tracked her now anne so will post more tonight.

Roy. I did not have the death of Thomas HOWE or his wife Hannah. So many many thanks. I think death of Hannah will probably be the second one you listed but will check it all out this weekend.

Anne and LadyKIra - watched that development in the Pool with great fascination. And I agree about Elizabeth HUGHES (80, Independent) in Holywell in 1841. It does suggest a bit of status for somebody living over a pub (won't be Roebuck, cos that was round corner) in Chester St, Holywell.

Amanda - still not found Glace in Radnorshire. But eliminated Church in Wales baptism in Glascwm. So still chapel baptisms in Glascwm and all sorts of baptism in Clas area of St Harmons parish to eliminate.

What a fascinating few days so far. Hope you have all enjoyed it as much as me :-D

possible
Parish Records Collection baptism
Forenames:John
Surname:Mostyn
Baptism Year:1800
Baptism Month:Oct
Baptism Day:20
Place:Llanychan
County:Denbighshire
Forenames:BenjaminMothers
Forenames:Margaret
Page:20Record source:
Denbigh baptisms - Transcripts Data provider:Welsh Archive Services / Gwasanaethau Archifau Cymru

possible Marriages Sep 1842
FEE Mary Ann Liverpool 20 199
JONES Sarah Liverpool 20 199
LLOYD Sarah Liverpool 20 199
MOSTYN Thomas Liverpool 20 199
SMITH Charles Liverpool 20 199
WILLAN Thomas Liverpool 20 199


1861 England Census about Thomas Mostyn
Name: Thomas Mostyn
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah A Mostyn
Gender: Male
Where born: Holywell, Flintshire, Wales
Civil parish: Westgate
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Town: Newcastle upon Tyne
County/Island: Northumberland
Country: England
Registration district: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Sub-registration district: Westgate
Thomas Mostyn 35
Sarah A Mostyn 35
Margaret A Mostyn 6
Thomas Mostyn


1871 Address: George Street, Westgate, Newcastle On Tyne
THOMPSON, Wm Head M 41 1830 Codurham
THOMPSON, Mary Ann Wife F 44 1827 Northumberland
DRYDEN, Wm Boarder M 23 1848 Yorkshire
HOWE, Geo Boarder M 23 1848 Northumberland
STUBBS, Thos Boarder M 25 1846 Cumberland
WALKER, Jno Boarder M 22 1849 Lancashire
CHRISP, Oswald Boarder M 20 1851 Northumberland
MOSTYN, Mgt Ann Servant F 16 1855 Northumberland


Marriages Sep 1875
CRYSTAL William Newcastle T. 10b 267
MOSTYN Margaret Ann Newcastle upon Tyne 10b 267

1881 8, Swan St, Westgate
CHRYSTAL, William Head Married M 32 1849 Printer Compositor
Newcastle, Northumberland
CHRYSTAL, Margaret A Wife Married F 26 1855
Newcastle, Northumberland
CHRYSTAL, Thomasth I Daughter Single F 3 1878
Newcastle, Northumberland
CHRYSTAL, James W Son Single M 2 1879
Newcastle, Northumberland

1891 Address: 26, Parker Street, Byker, Newcastle Upon Tyne
CRYSTAL, William Head Married M 41 1850 Printer Compositor
Newcastle upon Tyne
CRYSTAL, Margaret A Wife Married F 37 1854
Newcastle upon Tyne
CRYSTAL, Elizabeth J Daughter Single F 14 1877 Scholar
Newcastle upon Tyne
CRYSTAL, Mary L Daughter F 9 1882 Scholar
Newcastle upon Tyne
CRYSTAL, Thomas M Son M 7 1884 Scholar
Newcastle upon Tyne
CRYSTAL, Isabella Daughter F 4 1887
Newcastle upon Tyne
CRYSTAL, Margaret A Daughter F 2 1889
Newcastle upon Tyne

1901 Address: 22, Harriet Street, Byker, Newcastle Upon Tyne
CRYSTAL, Margaret Wife Married F 46 1855
CRYSTAL, Thomas M Son Single M 17 1884 Cartman
Newcastle, Northumberland
CRYSTAL, Isabella Daughter Single F 14 1887
Newcastle, Northumberland
CRYSTAL, Margaret Daughter Single F 12 1889
Newcastle, Northumberland
MCDONALD, William Visitor Married M 25 1876
Newcastle, Northumberland
DEES, Catheran A Visitor Married F 23 1878
Newcastle, Northumberland


1911 Address: 4 Wark Street Chester-Le-Street
CRYSTAL, Thomas Mostyn Head Married M 27 1884 Grocer Assistant Northumberland Newcastle
CRYSTAL, Elizabeth Wife Married7 years F 25 1886 Northumberland Newcastle
CRYSTAL, William Midstyn Son M 6 1905 Northumberland Newcastle
CRYSTAL, Norman Son M 4 1907 Northumberland Newcastle
CRYSTAL, Thomas Midstyn Son M 1 1910 Northumberland Newcastle
CRYSTAL, Margaret Ann Mother Married36 years F 57 1854 None Northumberland Newcastle

Occupation is different though