Genealogy Chat

Just to add...…I've just read back the previous posts and seen some which weren't there when I made my last post!!!
Sylvia's post and Nicola's post weren't there when I made my last post!
I couldn't find any info for Laura's birth either.....or any other certificates to be honest.

Mental health issues can be hereditary but can also be as a direct result of environment.

We have it so much easier these days because of our health care system. All it takes to make a massive difference is a bit of support both financially and morally.


It sounds like both of our Laura's had a very tough time of things......and so did Harry.


I will be interested to hear about the mental health institute that your Gt Nana might have been in. Wortley is only a stones throw away from us and I had no idea that such an institution existed there. Nowadays it's a very well heeled area.

Hi Nicola.
I've done a bit more research concerning your ancestors but something isn't adding up here. It's probably down to me but here we go anyhow. I'm also still on a learning curve where the Rowland family is concerned.


Your Gt gt grandparents would have been Robert (1838 - 1912) and Hannah Goddard.

They are also my Gt gt Grandparents.


They had 11 children which included my Gt grandfather.....Robert (1877 - 1941) and his brother Harry ( b 1868 and possibly died 1913). I haven't been able to find a death cert for Harry so I can only go on the information provided in a newspaper article and posted on this thread by DetEctTive.

The newspaper article states that Harry Rowland was on his way to visit his dangerously ill Mother at her daughters house. The daughter was mentioned as Mrs Sheldon which fits because Emma Rowland (daughter) married Walter Sheldon. Hannah...….Harry's Mother, died in 1913 as well so it all fits. Hannah was also a widow at that time because Robert Rowland had died in 1912.


The newspaper article also states that the deceased (sad circumstances by the sounds of it) left a widow and four children but records only show 3 children.

Try as I might I can't find a certificate of marriage between Harry and Laura and neither can I find any birth certs for the children. What I did find though was a certificate of baptism for Feb 28th 1912. . The baptism was for Laura, Gladys and Kate. The parents were Harry and Laura Rowland and he was a baker. That all fits anyhow.
No mention of Robert Henry being baptised at that time but at least we have a mention of the youngest child....Laura.

Your Gt Nana must have had to face some very tough times back then. She must have been aware that because of the passing of your Gt Grandfather....Harry....she was left in a position of not being able to look after four children without financial support. I assume that she chose to keep her eldest child …...Robert Henry... with her and also her youngest child.....Laura.
I can't begin to imagine just how hard it must have been for her to have to choose which children to place in care. For her then to have to make the later decision to place your Nana in care 2 years later must have been very hard for her. I can only assume that she kept her firstborn child with her because he was a son and would eventually be able to help out financially.
Just assumptions but there's no evidence that Robert Henry was placed in care.

I'm probably not looking in the right places but my searches on these 4 children and their parents are drawing mainly blanks for me anyhow.

@Carol - I'm fascinated by the mental institution that Laura (my great grandmother) may have been in. I'm definitely going to look more into that. Sadly my Nana also spent considerable time in a mental institution - the family always blamed her mental health problems on her time in an orphanage but perhaps it was in her genes too :-(

Thanks Sylvia - That's very kind of you, Laura was born 31st October 1911 - so her parents failed to register her death on time!

OK here is Laura's birth registration from the GRO Index

I don't know why it didn't show up when I was searching yesterday, and I did search as late as 1915!

ROWLAND, LAURA mmn GARDNER
GRO Reference: 1912 M Quarter in BAKEWELL Volume 07B Page 1643

Her birth was registered in the March quarter of 1912, which covers the months Jan, Feb and March.

A mother had 6 weeks in which to register the birth of a child, so Laura could have been born any time from 3rd week in November 1911 to late March 1912.

Thank you both so much for all the information - some of that I knew but some is new and so helpful. Thank you so much! I have found the orphanage (Cherry Tree in Totley) and the Totley History Society has scanned the admissions registers so I was able to confirm that Nana's two sisters Glayds and Kate were placed there two weeks after their father's death but Nana (another Laura) was placed there two years later.

My Nana was born in 1911 but after the census date which is why she does not show up there.

There are only 3 children born to Rowland/Gardner registered in Bakewell showing on the GRO Index ........


ROWLAND, ROBERT HENRY mmn GARDNER
GRO Reference: 1905 S Quarter in BAKEWELL Volume 07B Page 878

ROWLAND, KATE mmn GARDNER
GRO Reference: 1907 D Quarter in BAKEWELL Volume 07B Page 837

ROWLAND, GLADYS mmn GARDNER
GRO Reference: 1909 D Quarter in BAKEWELL Volume 07B Page 842


Maybe Laura could not handle any of the children, and the 4th child was "family story"????

Thank you so much for your information Dec....may I call you that?
I haven't seen that article before but it certainly sounds like it's the Harry that Nicola is looking for.
I also want to apologise for a glaring mistake I made in stating that Harry Rowland died in 1945. I did correct myself further down. He did in fact die in 1913 which certainly ties in with the newspaper article and would have made him 45 when he died.
A very sad story and poor Laura was then left on her own to fend for herself and her children.

Nicola......I have found 3 of the 4 children who were listed on the 1911 census. Robert Henry who was 5 years old in 1911. Kate who was 3 years old and Gladys who was only a year old. Your Nana would have been either Kate or Gladys then?
Harry and Laura would be your great grandparents?

Harry was my second great Uncle because he was the brother of my Great Grandfather who was Robert Rowland 1877-1941.
Harry and Roberts parents were Robert Rowland (1838-1912) and Hannah Goddard (1841-1913).
That makes my Gt Gt Grandparents your Gt grandparents......I think. lol. So you see.....we are quite closely related because we follow the same lineage.....I think.

I can follow knitting and sewing patterns without any problem at all but when it comes down to getting the heritage stuff in place my brain seems to throw a huge wobbly. lol


Anyhow...…...Robert Rowland (1838-1912), and Hannah Goddard were very productive and had lots of children. I'll list them here.

Margaret Ann. 1865-1930.

Emma. 1866 - ?


Harry. 1868- 1913? Married Laura (1869 - 1939.


Fanny. 1870 - ?

Sarah. 1872 - ?

Kate. 1874 - 1942.

Robert (my Gt grandfather) 1877 - 1941.

James W. 1878 - ?

Hannah. 1880 - ?

Lily. 1884 - ?

Louis. 1888 - 1891.

Robert and Hannah lived in Baslow at the Wheatsheaf hotel. I believe that Robert was a successful businessman and had quite a lot to do with the community. I've got newspaper clippings somewhere. He's buried in the church graveyard of St Annes church Baslow. The gravestone is very old now, and crumbling, but we always visit and pay our respects when in the area.
There is also a stained glass window in the church in commemoration of young Louis who was tragically killed at the family home (The Wheatsheaf hotel). The family also owned the local taxi business which was horse and carts back then and little louis was run over by one of these taxi's. Such a sad story.

Going back to Laura....your Gt Grandmother. She was born in 1869 in Sheffield and her parents (your Gt Gt grandparents) were Robert (33) (so many Roberts back then! lol) and Eleanor (38). I can only see that she had one son and two daughters with Harry.

She had two half sisters. Kate was born in 1871 in Sheffield and Eleanor was born in 1873 in Barnsley.

She had her son Robert Henry in 1906. Her daughter Kate in 1908 and her daughter Gladys in 1910. All three were born in Baslow.

On the 1911 census it shows Laura as living in the Baslow and Bubnell area and married to Harry.

The next entry I found is in 1939 where she was living in Riding, Northumberland and was a widow. I've also found something which says she was a patient at Wortley (I assume that's Sheffield) where it looks as if she died there. I'm more inclined to go with the Sheffield bit and ignore the Northumberland part.

I can't find any information about a fourth child though. Neither can I find any information about Laura's own birth status but because she had 2 half sisters born 2 years apart when she was only 2, there is a ? there. Maybe Laura's father had died or her parents divorced but perhaps that's one you might like to follow up.

A quick "google" shows me that there was some form of workhouse/mental institution at Wortley, Sheffield which suggests that poor Laura ended her days as a "patient" there at the age of about 70.

All for now anyhow. :-)

Nichola & Carol - although I've only briefly scanned the thread, has this article been mentioned before? Taken from Findmypast, British Newspapers Archive

SUDDEN SEIZURE. Death of Mr. harry Rowland at Baslow. A painful sensation was caused in Baslow late last night by the sudden death of Mr. Harry Rowland, son of the late Mr. Robert Rowland, of the Wheat Sheaf Hotel, Baslow
27 October 1913 - Sheffield Evening Telegraph - Sheffield, Yorkshire, England

The article goes on to say that he had recently moved to Stoney-Middleton to live but had journeyed to Baslow & called on several old friends.
“His mother lies dangerously ill at her daughters residence – Mrs Sheldon, the Bridge House – and he called there to see her about eight o’clock. It was noticed that he was looking ill”

He called at the residence of Dr Eddleston for a drink of water but didn’t stay long.
Shortly after 11 o’clock 2 men spotted someone close to the Devonshire Arms who appeared ill.
“He was apparently in a comatose state, and before medical assistance could be procured, or he could be removed, he expired”
“Deceased leaves a widow and four children”
....
Belper News 07 November 1913 published a report of the inquest. Harry & Laura had moved to Stoney-Middleton during the last week. Laura said that he had left home at 6 pm to go to Chapel & that was the last she had seen of him.

Dr Edleston had last attended him in July. In reply to the Coroners questions, he believed the underlying reasons could have led to his death.
Harry ‘was suffering from delirium tremens’
Dr Edleston ‘had attended him before for the consequences of drink’
His opinion was that the cause of death ‘was heart failure due to previous drinking habits’
The Jury agreed.

Hello Nicola and ErikaH.
Amazingly enough I am still here! I have only just taken up my research all these years later.
I was sort of struck down with the dreaded cancer at the latter end of 2013 so everything went on the back burner for a while.
I'm fine and dandy now though and my interest in my ancestors has recently been re-kindled.
I'm still trying to get it all back together and running around like a headless chicken but my aim is to try and get everything in order so that I can leave a potted history to my children and grand children.

Nicola I am pleased to hear from you and I will help you in any way that I can. The amount of hand written notes that I have resemble the nest of a pile of squabbling birds and I've only just recently dug it all out recently in order to try and pick up where I left off!
My Great great Grandfather was Robert Rowland (1838-1912) who was married to Hannah Goddard. They had several children including my great grandfather who was also Robert Rowland born 1877-1941. He was married to Kate Rollinson.Then there was my grandfather.....Robert Arthur Rowland. 1897-1962. He was married to Doris Bradshaw. Finally my Dad who was Robert Walter Rowland....1925.2012.


Robert Rowland and Hannah Goddard had a son called Harry in 1868 and he died in 1945 so he isn't your Harry.

I have tried to keep to the direct line of my Dads ancestors but it's hard because with each sibling comes further marriages and children etc.
There is every possibility that our ancestors are related making us also distant relatives. Isn't that exciting?
I've just had a quick look on ancestry and I see that Harry was born in 1868 which made him 43 in the 1911 census. He was married to Laura and was a confectioner in Baslow. My ancestors owned a bakery/confectioners which suggests they were probably related. I see they had 3 children.....Robert Henry who was 5 years old in 1911. Kate who was 3 and Gladys who was 1.

That was 1911 but by 1913 the 4th child was either born or expected. Harry died in 1913 at the age of 45.
I suppose your Nana had no choice but to place the elder 3 children into a care home while keeping the baby with her. There wasn't any social care back in those days. They were dark days of hardship so probably most relatives were struggling as well.
I'm only painting a picture here but maybe you might be able to gain access to records from the home which might throw more light on why the children were placed in a childrens home.

I doubt that Carol will be expecting a reply after 6 years, so click on her name to send a message. If her email hasn’t changed, GR will notify her.

To find out about the death in 1913, the best way to start is to obtain a copy death cert, if you haven't already done so

@Carol Are you still researching the Rowlands family history? It seems we are distantly related.

My sister and I are researching our family history at the moment and came across this old thread. We are descendants of the Rowland Family - our Nana was one of the daughters of Harry and Laura Rowland. We have found out a lot online re the family tree but at the moment are particularly interested in finding out more about the death of Harry Rowland in 1913 and why Laura then placed three of her four children into Cherry Tree children's home (including our nana). Particularly as there were lots of Aunts and Uncles around who could perhaps have taken them in.

We'd be very grateful for any information you may have.

Hello Derek and mgnv.
Thank you mgnv. It all sounds very complicated to a "blonde" but the links do indeed show the church where some of my ancestors are buried and where the stained glass window is. . The bridge is the bridge which allegedly belonged to the family along with the Wheatsheaf Hotel.
I've actually got an original sepia photograph of the bridge with the title of "Rowlands bridge" on it.

Derek.......thank you so much for your advice and offer of help for which I am very grateful because left to my own devices I think I would end up hurtling down the wrong path.

I know what you mean though because I've already caused myself confusion where some grandparents are concerned...........are they mine or not! :-S

I suppose things might have been easier had my Father been willing to talk about his parents but because his Father left his Mother he didn't have a very good childhood and left as soon as was possible. He married my Mother eventually and they moved to Plymouth where I was born and bred. I only met my Grandfather once and by then he was living with his Lady who I understood to be my Grandmother. They weren't married because my blood Grandmother (who I never met) refused to divorce him. Sounds like it was very bitter on both sides and my poor Father was caught in the firing line.

I believe my Grandfathers name was Robert Arthur Rowland and he was born in 1898. In the 1911 census he is down as living in Ecclesall Bierlow.
I believe my Grandmother was called Doris Bradshaw but I don't know anymore then that. I don't know when they were married or when they separated. I believe she died about 1971..ish and I think my grandfather died around 1966. My Grandfather had a sister (Kate) and two brothers, George and Richard. Richard was a downs syndrome baby who eventually went into an institution where he died in his 40's.
The person who I was led to believe was my grandmother lived with my grandfather until his death and she had 2 sons to him........my fathers half brothers. I am in contact with them and had contact with my step grandmother when I came to live in Yorkshire. It was because of them that I learnt something of my history because my parents didn't tell us anything. In fact I thought my sister knew and only found out very recently that she didn't have any idea at all.

It's such a shame but in those days marriage break up was frowned upon. My Father ....Robert Walter....was the only child born to his parents. Yes, my Dad was born in Sheffield in 1925.

I believe my great grandfather was also a Robert Rowland born in 1876 (Calver?) and I think his parents ....my gt gt grandparents.......were Robert Rowland and Hannah Goddard.
Hannah's Mother was a Cocker but I haven't done very much more around that era because I was tying myself in knots!

I'm well known for trying to run before I can walk. :-)

I really do understand what you mean about my little hand of acorns turning into a whole forest of oaks in no time at all. Phew, it's easy to get a headache trying to sort it all out. I really must learn to slow down a bit.

I really didn't know that the name Rowland was so common in Derbyshire.
Funnily enough when I was researching Eyam and the plague etc I came across the name Naylor quite a lot.
My daughter married a Naylor and his family are also from Derbyshire.....what a small world we live in?

Anyhow Derek, you certainly seem to know what you are talking about and I admire you for the amount of time and work that you have obviously put into your research.
I am just finding it very exciting to learn more about my heritage and I really appreciate your help here.

Carol. x

Hello Carol..nice to see you back.

Just one or two points that might help you:-

You must go back from what you already know..your own parents , grandparents etc... It is no good hitting on an obscure 16th Century Rowland and trying to come forward from there...because inside a century your little handful of acorns has grown into a forest of oak trees........particularly with a name like Rowland in Derbyshire!!

Do not get side-tracked........go for immediate ancestors.single line..back to four and five times great grandparents.(that is probably about 1700-1750.

Once having established the main structure..the fun starts by adding siblings and their marriages and their children...........etc etc...........

Never guess..if you have several options, ask for help..there is always some way of eliminating false branches..........and NEVER accept stuff from other Trees that has not been researched properly.....

You say that your father died aged 88..which means he was born 1925 ish...which also means that his parents would have been on the 1911Census.which is always my starting point for going backwards.........with the records and the experience I have....if i know the names of your Rowland grandparents or great-grandparents..the 1911 census is the linkinto myParish records..which can go bacl to your 1600 Rowlands..so i can almost guarantee to find a substantial part of your heritage.......see what you can find for me...

I am now going to examine the Baslow records..for a start..for Rowlands and Goddards......

Derek.

Well, here's another distraction for you - since it works for Devon, Yorks - well anywhere really, including Baslow, I've given you my geeky methodology, too.

If I search for Baslow at:
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/
it takes me to an URL that begins with
www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=425500&y=372500& etc
This URL incorporates the OS coords to the nearest metre of the arrow-head (namely 425500,372500)
I can zoom in one level, and get a larger scale map - the highest 2 zoom levels are just street maps.

I can now go to http://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html and enter these coords.
However, I can't move around on these maps, I just get a fixed window of the map, and the windows a bit too far N so I lower the northing by a couple of hundred metres, and also increase the easting by 40m, so the label "Wheatsheaf Inn" at least shows "Wheatsheaf" and isn't cut firther short by the right edge of the window.
I don't want to move further E, or I'll cut off the bridge at the left edge of the window.
Thus, I enter the coords of 425540,372300 and select the oldest map - the 1879 1:2500. The smaller scale 1:10560 maps don't have so much interesting detail.


There's another system of coords in use today - it replaces the initial pair (4,3 here) by 2 magic letters (SK here) and runs the rest of the digits together (SK2554072300 here).
If I was to round down to the nearest km, instead of metre, I'ld get SK2572.
Now go to http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/SK2572 for a set of 82 pics in this sq km.
Of note are:
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2931075
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3143542

Hello all.
I'm back......sort of anyhow. I am ready to pick up where I left off but everything is as clear as mud now. :-( I really need to get all my notes back in order and read through them all again to refresh my memory.
I thank you for your condolences. There's only me and my sister left now (apart from our adult children and our grandchildren) and she isn't interested in her heritage so I'll do it as best as I can for the grandchildren.

We did have a trip to Baslow earlier on this year though and I've now located the stained glass window commemorating the death of little Louis who was killed by a coach and horse which apparently was another string to the families bow....besides the Wheatsheaf hotel.
I also found my Great Grandfathers grave in the church graveyard and I believe little Louis (who was 3 when he died) is buried there with his father. The headstone is in a bad state of repair but at one time it was pretty spectacular.
There was another family grave as well but I can't remember who just now. I've taken plenty of photo's and I must print them off and perhaps begin a family album of such stuff.

I've also managed to go back even further thanks to a lovely lady on here who contacted me and provided me with a lot of information.

It would appear that some of my ancestors died in the Eyam plague and there's even a plaque on the ice cream parlour wall in commemoration of the family. Only 2 members survived...........Alice (wife and mother) and Francis her son.
We found the headstone of one of the children leant up against the church wall. Abel Rowland. Apparently that headstone was unearthed as part of the kitchen floor in a derelict cottage!
We found another headstone in the church yard as well......Humphrey I think. The family name is also mentioned in the lovely museum there.

We plan on visiting again sometime soon and taking our 9 year old grandson with us. He is studying the plague as a school project at the moment and his class visited Eyam just a few weeks ago.
I had told him about his family connections so he was thrilled to be able to pass the information onto his teacher.
Now we want to take him back and show him the things that we discovered. We also want to visit the village of Rowland because I understand there are more connections related to the family there as well.

So, thanks to the enormous help I've been given I now have a starting point from which to go forward.

Anthony Rowland who died in 1598.
He was a farmer with mines and he left a will.
His wife was called Ann and they had 9 children.
Godfrey.......1580 - 21st March 1615
Thomas.........died 2-12-1616
Anthony.........died 2-4-1649
Samuel
Ann
Sarah
Mary
Emma
Amie

Thank you all again but please forgive me if I don't know what questions to ask because I just don't have a methodical head at all so I seem to dart from one thing to another. I have got masses of "notes" and have looked at them again this week but they just don't make a lot of sense at the moment!
I think that my problem is that I've been side tracked.
Instead of just following my own direct line I've found myself getting mixed up with other siblings of my ancestors and then wondering if I've got the right great grandparents etc.
Does this make sense?
Bear in mind that I have never been given much information from my own Father because his parents split when he was quite young and my grandfather took up with another woman who didn't have much time for my poor Father. Basically he was let down by both of his parents and his way out was to lie about his age and join the RAF during the war years.
He married my mother and they settled in Devon which was a long way from Yorkshire and his roots.
I was born and bred in Devon so it's really strange how I have ended up spending my entire married life living in Yorkshire and raising my family here as well.
My Father didn't want to have anything to do with his family and now here am I trying to delve into the past. They are my ancestors as well though and I feel the need to know more about them and I want that information to be available to my children and my grandchildren should they want to know.....warts and all.

:-) :-)

Would like to add my condolences to those of Jax........
For future reference i salso have the Brampton records where the Goddards/Gothards came from.........among many other Derbyshire Records.

Take care

Derek.

Sorry to hear your sad news Carol.

Please return when you feel ready and I am sure Derek will be able to help you further

Hello Derek.
Thankyou so much for your very kind offer. I'm having to put this on the back burner for now though because sadly the last Rowland of my particular branch of the tree passed away this morning.
This was Robert Walter Rowland who was my Father. He passed away today in Plymouth, aged 88 years old.

I'm sure there's plenty that I can ask you about though, so I will get back to you in the near future. The stained glass window in the church intrigues me, as does the bridge.

You are all such kind people and I really appreciate all of your help.