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Confirmation on findings please?

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Leyther

Leyther Report 15 Nov 2012 09:15

Thank you Jonesey - you have put my mind at ease. As I was helping out my friend here at work, I did not want to give her "duff" information but your clarification and everyone's help has been very helpful. Thank you all again

Lorraine

Jonesey

Jonesey Report 14 Nov 2012 15:09

Lorraine,

As far as the omission of the word deceased against the father John Hall on the 1915 marriage certificate. In my experience that was quite common even if the individual was known to be dead and probably depended upon how or if the person writing out the certificate asked the question, "Is your father still alive?" Whether John Hall Snr was alive or not in 1913 or 1915 is not really known at this stage and perhaps his sons did not know for certain either.

As far as Reuben's full siblings all being born in different places is concerned, that again is not uncommon particularly if their father was in a transient occupation such as a labourer whose services might be required anywhere.

Here is Eliza Hall's birth registration. A copy of the certificate should clarify whether her parentage was the same as Reuben's.

Name: Eliza Hall
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1887
Registration district: Rochford
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 446

Leyther

Leyther Report 14 Nov 2012 13:00

Hello again
Thanks for this Jonesey & Shirley - yes I did find the Jessie & John marriage and just wanted your confirmation they were linked and the same family as Reuben & Caroline? The only thing that threw me was on Jessie Harts & John Halls marriage cert, he says Father is John Hall but he is NOT deceased, whereby the year prior on Reubens marriage cert he is deceased - was it common for this to be just an error?

Thanks Shirley for the baptism record for Eliza and the 1891 census for Caroline...great both the Hall and the Harts parents are called John & Sarah eh? haha

I suppose I was just looking now to see if Caroline, Jessie, & Florence (Mentioned on the certs)) are ever listed as living together but they don't seem to be looking at the census' available.

So to conclude, we have Caroline, Jessie, Eliza, & Florence HART as Sisters? (And a Brother Robert on the 1891 census) and Reuben & John Hall as Brothers (with a Sister ELiza HAll on the 1891 census) so far? ...plus Reuben ended up with some half siblings when his Mother re-married Mr John Holder/n.

Many thanks for your help and clarification on this.. I was just in doubt as in the beginning, Reuben Hall seemed to travel about a bit from Cheshire, to Birmingham way then eventually London ...and his siblings all born in a different place along the way!

CHeers

Lorraine



Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it Report 13 Nov 2012 22:01

Name: Eliza Hart
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 29 Aug 1880 b 7th July 1879
Father's Name: John Hart occ labourer
Mother's name: Sarah Hart
Parish or Poor Law Union: Peckham St St Chrysostom
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Registers

home address 9 Victoria Place Peckham

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it Report 13 Nov 2012 21:45

only Caroline on the 1891 census
1891 England Census about Caroline Hart
Name: Caroline Hart
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1881
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John Hart
Mother's name: Sarah Hart
Gender: Female
Where born: Camberwell, London, England
Civil parish: Camberwell
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
Town: Peckham
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 10 Victoria Place

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Camberwell
Sub-registration district: Peckham
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 473
Folio: 24
Page Number: 41
Household Members:
Name Age
John Hart 52 occ general labourer
Sarah Hart 45
Eliza Hart 14
Caroline Hart 10
Robert Hart 6

Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 473; Folio: 24; Page: 41; GSU roll: 609558

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it Report 13 Nov 2012 21:29

Name: Reuben Hall ooc Sailor RN
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Age: 25
Spouse Name: Caroline Hart
Spouse Age: 25
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 26 Aug 1913
Parish: Camberwell Emmanuel
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: John Hall deceased occ miner
Spouse Father Name: John Hart deceased occ miner
Register Type: Parish Register


home address for both 26 Mansion Street Camberwell

witnesses John Thomas Horn and Jessie Hart


married at the same church

Name: John Hall
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885
Age: 30
Spouse Name: Jessie Hart
Spouse Age: 29
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 30 Jan 1915
Parish: Camberwell Emmanuel
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: John Hall occ labourer
Spouse Father Name: John Hart deceased occ labourer
Register Type: Parish Register

home address 26 Mansion Street Camberwell

witnesses Caroline Hall & Florence Hart



Didnt you have all this though ??

Not sure what more you are looking for ??

Jonesey

Jonesey Report 13 Nov 2012 21:24

1911 census for 26 Mansion St, Camberwell just for reference:

Name: John Hart
Age in 1911: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1883
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Newton (Shirenewton on orig) (Monmouthshire?)
Civil parish: Camberwell
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 26 Mansion Street, Camberwell S E
Marital Status: Married
Years married: 4
Estimated Marriage Year: 1907
Occupation: GENERAL LABOURER
Registration district: Camberwell
Registration District Number: 27
Sub-registration district: Camberwell North
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Piece: 2503
Household Members:
Name Age
John Hart 28
Louisa Emily Hart 25 born London
Louisa Emily Hart 3 born New York

Leyther

Leyther Report 13 Nov 2012 20:41

Hi again
Just had a look at the records you have found, some I had found so am glad you seem to agree and confirm these, some I had not found, so again, glad you did!! : ) especially birth records of all those children shwing parents names - I shall plot these now and show my coleague to see what she thinks - as I say she had been stuck on Reuben Hall for months.

So it appears Reubens Mother Sarah maried a John Hall and then when John Hall died she re-married another John but this time a Holder/n. and she had a few more children (Although we never found John Holder living with the family?

I am a little unsure again upon looking, whether Reubens and Carolines marriage cert shows their fathers profession as mariner or miner because of the position of dot on the "i"...but I suppose that is not stopping the research... :)

I did look at possibilities of Reubens Father John and did see that record you found Jonesey, so again, I am liking that theory....thankyou.

Only if anyones has time, would you be able to see if the wedding cert names showing Jessie, Florence etc and a John Hart living at 26 Mansion Street in 1911 are linked?..and finally does it seem that two Brothers married two Sisters? Reuben and John Hall (John a widow aged 30 when he married Jessie) married Sisters Caroline & Jessie Hart? are there records showing Jessie living with Caroline as children anywhere? or proof of the same parents?

A lot to ask I know so no worries if I have exhausted the subject as don't want to abuse your good natures! - a BIG THANKS once again to you all.

Lorraine

Leyther

Leyther Report 13 Nov 2012 18:16

Dear All, please do not think me rude for not answering straight away - I have just got in from work so will have a look at and digest all this wonderful info very shortly! And thank you Jonesey for clarifying the marriage cert "mariner / miner" ...I was unsure and opted for Mariner with the Reuben being a Sailor (Daft assumption maybe with hindsight as it did throw me when I have seen other docs saying Labourer which is more fitting with a miner).

I did look for the marriage of Jessie Hart who witnessed Reuben and Carolines marriage in 1914 and found a Jessie Hart marry a John HALL (Could this be Reubens Brother?) on Jan 30th 1915 at Camberwell and they too list their address as 26 Mansion St. Their witnesses are now Caroline HALL (Our Reubens Caroline) and Florence Hart (Giving me maybe a Sister to Jessie and Caroline?).

Also on an address search in 1911, when Reuben was at sea before he married, 26 Mansion Street was occupied by John Hart and his Wife Louisa and their child. ...So is this John Hart the Brother to Caroline, Jessie & Florence? Am I building the Hart family maybe?

Lots of names and linkng to be done I think - but thank you al so much for your prompt replies so far - very much appreciated....(My colleague had been told Reuben was Jewish but there is no evidence of that just yet, but that is somethng else haha)...

thanks again, I will be back shortly

Lorraine

Gins

Gins Report 13 Nov 2012 16:26

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
Name: Eva Rose Holder
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 28 Mar 1905
Father's Name: John Holder <<Labourer
Mother's name: Sarah Ann Holder
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bow Common St Paul
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Register Type: Parish Registers

Jonesey

Jonesey Report 13 Nov 2012 15:44

Distinct possibility for Reuben Hall's father:

Births Mar 1864
HALL John Stow on W 6a 381

1871:
Name: John Hall
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation: Son
Father's Name: David Hall
Mother's name: Mary Hall
Gender: Male
Where born: Bourton, Gloucestershire, England
Civil parish: Bourton on the Water
Town: Bourton
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England
Registration district: Stow On The Wold
Sub-registration district: Bourton on the Water
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Household schedule number: 196
Piece: 2653
Folio: 21
Page Number: 35
Household Members:
Name Age
David Hall 41
Mary Hall 38
Harvay Hall 13
Sidney Hall 11
Hodwin Hall 9
John Hall 6
Annie Hall 4
Harriet Hall 3
Bettine Hall 6 Months

1881:
Name: John Hall
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Bourton On Water, Gloucestershire, England
Civil parish: Upper Slaughter
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England
Street Address: Hill Top Cottage
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Agricultural Labourer
Registration district: Stow On The Wold
Sub-registration district: Bourton On The Water
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2562
Folio: 115
Page Number: 13
Household Members:
Name Age
John Beacham 56
Elizabeth Beacham 47
Sarah Ann Beacham 11
Clara Beacham 8
John Hall 17

1891:
Name: John Hall
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah Ann Hall
Gender: Male
Where born: Bolton on Water, Gloucestershire, England
Civil parish: Pudsey
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Tyersal
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Bradford
Sub-registration district: Pudsey
ED, institution, or vessel: 22
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3658
Folio: 52
Page Number: 4
Household Members:
Name Age
John Hall 28
Sarah Ann Hall 28
John Frederick Hall 7
Eliza Hall 4
Reuben Hall 1
Charles Dukes 41

P.S. Lorraine, if you look again at the 1913 marriage certificate I think that you may find that the occupation given for the fathers of the bride and groom reads Miner rather than Mariner.

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it Report 13 Nov 2012 15:41

Name: Sophia Elsie Miles
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1907
Registration district: Woodstock
Inferred County: Oxfordshire
Volume: 3a
Page: 1043

she was born Deddington Oxfordshire

??
Births Sep 1906
Miles Eva Anna Greenwich 1d 1095 ( census says born
London )



Births Dec 1909
MILES Sarah Mabel Newport M. 11a 310 (census says born Monmouthshire)

Jonesey

Jonesey Report 13 Nov 2012 15:35

Sarah Ann's maiden name and birth registration:

Name: Sarah Ann Tompkins
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1863
Registration district: Chipping Norton
Inferred County: Oxfordshire
Volume: 3a
Page: 623

1871:
Name: Sarah Tompkins
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Levi Tompkins born Great Rollright, Oxfordshire
Mother's name: Ann Tompkins born Hook Norton, Oxfordshire
Gender: Female
Where born: Great Rollright, Oxfordshire, England
Civil parish: Tilehurst
County/Island: Berkshire
Country: England
Registration district: Bradfield
Sub-registration district: Tilehurst
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 226
Piece: 1277
Folio: 83
Page Number: 34
Household Members:
Name Age
Levi Tompkins 38
Ann Tompkins 23
John Tompkins 13
Elizabeth Tompkins 9
Sarah Tompkins 7
Rhoda Tompkins 4
Thos Tompkins 3 Months


1881:
Name: Sarah A. Tompkins
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Great Rollright, Oxfordshire, England
Civil parish: Chipping Norton
County/Island: Oxfordshire
Country: England
Street Address: High Street
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: General Servant
Registration district: Chipping Norton
Sub-registration district: Chipping Norton
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1520
Folio: 29
Page Number: 51
Household Members:
Name Age
Martin Pearson 52
Francis C. Pearson 48
Martin M. Pearson 21
Halbert A. Pearson 16
Ernest H. Pearson 14
Elizabeth F. Pears0n 12
Marthill E. Pearson 10
Percy H. Pearson 3
Jane E. Schofield 24
Fredrick J. Mills 16
Sarah A. Tompkins 18

Marriages Sep 1883
HALL John Chipping N. 3a 1232
Tompkins Sarah Ann Chipping Norton 3a 1232

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it Report 13 Nov 2012 15:28

The Miles children on the 1911 census are listed as Grandchildren

Sarah states married 17 years but no hubby listed maybe he was a mariner too and away each census time

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it Report 13 Nov 2012 15:23

??
Name: John William Holder
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1897
Registration district: Fulham
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1a
Page: 181

Jonesey

Jonesey Report 13 Nov 2012 15:22

1911 census for reference:
Name: Sarah Ann Holder
Age in 1911: 47
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Oxford, England
Civil parish: Greenwich
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 68 Selcroft Rd, East Greenwich, London S E
Marital Status: Married
Years married: 17
Estimated Marriage Year: 1894
Occupation: NIL
Registration district: Greenwich
Registration District Number: 28
Sub-registration district: Greenwich East
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Piece: 2703
Household Members:
Name Age
Sarah Ann Holder 47
John William Holder 14
Edward James Holder 11
Eva Rose Holder 6
Eva Miles 4
Sophia Elsie Miles 3
Sarah Mabel Miles 1

Jonesey

Jonesey Report 13 Nov 2012 15:15

Shirley,

SNAP :-D

Jonesey

Jonesey Report 13 Nov 2012 15:14

Ancestry has transcribed Sarah as Holder rather than Holden. Having looked at the original I am inclined to agree with Ancestry's transcriber on this occasion. The fact that 2 other children appear on the 1901 census, both described as Sarah's sons must lead to the conclusion that Sarah either remarried or took the surname of the father of the younger children. Perhaps a copy of what may well be the youngest child's birth registration might shed some light on the matter:

Births Sep 1899
Holder Edwin James Edmonton 3a 453

N.B. Tottenham came within the Edmonton registration district.

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it Report 13 Nov 2012 15:12

Name: Edwin James Holder
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1899
Registration district: Edmonton
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume: 3a
Page: 453

will give parents names

Edmonton reg district covered Tottenham

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it Report 13 Nov 2012 15:09

She has 3 older Hall children thena big gap to the Holder children so looks like she remarried

Name: Reuben Hall
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation: Son
Mother's name: Sarah A Holder
Gender: Male
Where born: Ellemore Part, Cheshire, England
Civil parish: Illey
Ecclesiastical parish: Halesowen St John the Baptist
Town: Illey
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Stourbridge
Sub-registration district: Halesowen
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 85
Piece: 2752
Folio: 112
Page Number: 16
Household Members:
Name Age
Sarah A Holder 37
John Hall 16
Eliza Hall 14
Reuben Hall 11
John Holder 3 b Notting Hill london
Edwin Holder 2 b Tottenham
Charles Pauley 32

Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 2752; Folio: 112; Page: 16.