Genealogy Chat

have just found an image of the original Marriage Register for my Great Grandmother, Elizabeth Ann Webster (nee Hudson) for 11th November 1876 when she married Tom Webster. She was born in 1857 in Norwich.
What I would like to know is, when the father's name and occupation are listed, was it a requirement that the Registrar made a note if the father was deceased?
I ask this because his name is listed as Nicholas Hudson with an occupation of Labourer. The Nicholas I had been tracing died between 1857 and 1861 and was a Miller! It doesn't help that she was born in Norwich and got married in Leeds!
Any help would be most welcome.

Regards,
Keith

There is no such requirement Keith, so he might be either living or dead!
However, if you are looking at a miller you might have the wrong man. Do you have Ann on a census prior to marriage?
Jan

Thanks Jan. Yes I have an Elizabeth Ann Hudson on the 1861 census in the Norwich area. I will have another look for her in the 1871 census.
Regards,
Keith

For ref: Nicholas Hudson's occupation is a Miller in all census.


1851 England Census

Name: Nichols Hudson
Age: 49
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1802
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Louisa Hudson
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Thorp Abbette, Norfolk, England

Civil parish: Eyke
County/Island: Suffolk
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: Miller

Condition as to marriage:

Disability:

View image

Registration district: Plomesgate
Sub-registration district: Earl
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 58
Piece: 1802
Folio: 379
Page Number: 15
Household Members:
Name Age
Nichols Hudson 49
Louisa Hudson 29
Nichole William Hudson 3 Mo


1861 England Census about Louisa Hudson (Nicholas elsewhere)
Name: Louisa Hudson
Age: 41
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1820
Relation: Wife
Gender: Female
Where born: Fostwich, Suffolk, England

Civil parish: Norwich St Clement
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

View image

Registration district: Norwich
Sub-registration district: Coslany
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 151
Piece: 1211
Folio: 106
Page Number: 27
Household Members:
Name Age
Louisa Hudson 41
Richard W Hudson 10
James E Hudson 9
Rebecca L Hudson 7
Elizabeth A Hudson 4
Susannah Hudson 2


Possible ?

1861 England Census about Nicholson Hudson

Name: Nicholson Hudson
Age: 55
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1806
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: Thorpe Abbotts, Suffolk, England

Civil parish: East Dereham
Town: East Dereham
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

View image

Registration district: Mitford
Sub-registration district: East Dereham
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 51
Piece: 1242
Folio: 55
Page Number: 8
Household Members:
Name Age
Robert Rawlings 69
Keziah E Rawlings 50
Nicholson Hudson 55
Samuel Pyne 30
Leah Pyne 10



1871 England Census about Nicholas Hudson (still alive in 1871)
Name: Nicholas Hudson
Age: 70
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1801
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Louisa Hudson
Gender: Male
Where born: Shipdham, Norfolk, England
Civil parish: Shipdham
Town: Shipdham
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England
Registration district: Mitford
Sub-registration district: Shipdham
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Household schedule number: 130
Piece: 1843
Folio: 70
Page Number: 23
Household Members:
Name Age
Nicholas Hudson 70
Louisa Hudson 50
Nicholas Wm Hudson 20
James Hudson 18
Susanna Hudson 12
Maryann Carolina Hudson 10
George Hudson 7
Anna Maria Hudson 3

?
Marriages Sep 1850
HUDSON Nicholas Woodbridge 12 693
Pamment Louisa Woodbridge 12 693



England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915 about Nicholas Hudson
Name: Nicholas Hudson
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1800
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1877
Age at Death: 77
Registration district: Mitford
Inferred County: Norfolk
Volume: 4b

Thank you Helen for all that info!
I had already found Nicholas and Louisa Hudson on the 1871 census, but no sign of Elizabeth Ann. As he was already 70 then, he probably didn't make it to her wedding. Why she gave his occupation as a Labourer is anybody's guess!
I mistakenly thought that as Nicholas was missing from the 1861 census he had already died.
Thanks again.
Regards,
Keith

Keith


It often depended on just how the vicar worded the question as to whether the word deceased appears on a marriage certificate.


If he said "What is your father's name and occupation?"

The answer would often be just that ................ the bride or groom would not volunteer the information "........ but he's dead"


If the vicar asked "What is your father's name and occupation, and is he still alive?"

then he would get the full answer.



But you can also get wrong answers IF the father had left the family ................. often the bride or groom would say he was dead when he was still alive, because it was easier to say that than to say "I don't know because I haven't seen him for xxx years" ................... also less shaming!





sylvia

Rule of thumb:-

Deceased = deceased (most probably)
Not Deceased = deceased or living
Blank = illegitimate

Thank you Sylvia and InspectorGreenPen. I'm just beginning to realize that a high proportion of the info on certificates, registers and indexes may be wrong or misleading, although if I can I don't rely on Transcriptions!

Keith

:-S

Keith


information on a death certificate is even more misleading!!!

The problem is that it is another person (the "informant") giving the information, no documentation has ever been required ............... and even spouse or children can get things wrong, let alone sons/daughters-in-law, or neighbours, care givers, etc.


It all depends on "hearsay" ................ what the deceased person told people when still alive.


The only statements that you can rely on being true for an adult are:-

date and place of death
cause of death
name and address of doctor (and coroner if involved)
name (probably), address and relationship of informant.


Everything else .................. name of deceased, age, occupation, marital status .............. is subject to "hearsay".


The age and birth date depend entirely on what she/he told people ........ and many people told "porkies" about their age throughout life, for whatever reason.

so, basically, you have to take the information with a pinch of salt, and not rule out a death certificate on first glance because the age or name is different from what you expect.





sylvia

Sylvia,

What a pity that Time Machines haven't been invented yet! It would make things so much easier to go back and actually talk to our ancestors!

Keith :-)

My gt/gt/grandfather is listed as deceased on several of his childrens marriage certificates and he was alive and well and married to a much younger woman. A family rift led to some of his children never speaking to him again.

The young lady he married very quickly following the death of his first wife, was a neighbour and contemporary of many of his older children. And they went on to have 3 more children.

Keith


it would indeed be easier!!!



My own grandfather always celebrated his birthday on December 25 ................ so we always had to make time on Christmas Day morning to cross town and wish him Happy Birthday.


We also understood that he was born in 1886


Nope .........


after he died, my uncle found a birth certificate hidden in a drawer .................. He was born Jan 9 1885.


He WAS baptized on Dec 29 1886, along with his younger sister born in December 1886!


Maybe his parents found it cheaper to celebrate birthday and Christmas together ............... but why did Granddad keep it going after getting his birth certificate?



To add to my confusion ......................


he married in 1902 ............. and told porkies on his marriage certificate!!


He was actually 17 years old, but said he was 19


His wife said she was 20, when she was actually 19