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Brick wall - my grandfather's birth details

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Jay

Jay Report 6 Mar 2013 15:55

I'm wondering if Edward was born between Albert William and Bertie Alexander or, more probably, after Bertie Alexander. As you say, he may have been away (at sea) at census time.

By the way, I typed Bertie Alexander into an Ancestry search and there were a lot of them which surprised me. They can't have been named after Victoria's son Bertie who was actually Albert Edward I think.

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 6 Mar 2013 13:30

Hi Jay, there is quite a lot to take in!

Alice Mealey married Henry Walthew in 1879 (I posted the marriage on page 3). Henry's father is named as Henry Hornby on marriage. This implies that Henry Walthew was the illegitimate son of a Hornby.

Officially, the Henry and Alice that married in 1879 should have the surname Walthew but it appears that Henry also chose to be known by his father's name of Hornby (and basically you can call yourself anything you want as long as it's not done for illegal purposes), hence the variation in surnames on census and the birth records of children. This is a scenario that we often come across.

When Alice died in 1926 her death was registered in her "official" married name. You'll notice that I posted her husband's burial and he's listed as Henry Hornby Walthew.

The important thing though is that we don't have any concrete proof yet that the Bertie Alexander on the 1911 is actually your grandfather Edward (although there are pointers such as the father's name, his children's names, etc).

I'm wondering if electoral rolls might have some clues (but if Edward was away at sea then might be difficult).

Perhaps someone with local knowledge of Liverpool might have some ideas?

Jay

Jay Report 6 Mar 2013 12:29

Sorry to appear a bit dim but is the suggestion that Alice Hornby (on 1911) later married a Walthew - so was probably widowed after 1913. If so Margaret, Albert William, Bertie Alexander and Henry were my Edward's siblings. It is a fact that Edwards 13 children included the use of ALL of those names. I'm not sure where to go next though.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 4 Mar 2013 09:08

This is the one born 1853, whose birth MC posted on page 3.
Haven't yet found the death of the one born 1880, posted at bottom of page 3.

Deaths Jun 1918
Walthew Henry H 65 W.Derby 8b 421

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 4 Mar 2013 08:04

Ann, I don't think that's a daft idea at all.

Found this death:

Liverpool, England, Burials, 1813-1974

Name: Alice Walthew
Birth Year: abt 1864
Age: 62
Burial Date: 10 May 1926
Parish: Walton Park

Address is 22 Sheridan Street, which is the same as the 1911 I posted on page 3 where she was called Hornby.

Buried at Rice Lane parochial cemetery, the reference is 1644 6L. Cost was 18/-

(Will update Henry Hornby Walthew's record on page 3 with similar info)

patchem

patchem Report 4 Mar 2013 06:58

John Mealy
[John Mealey]
Age: 60 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Relation: Head Gender: Male Where born: Dublin, Ireland
Civil parish: Everton County/Island: Lancashire Country: England
Street Address: 31 Mark St Condition as to marriage: Widow
Occupation: Car Driver Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: Everton ED, institution, or vessel: 74
Piece: 3668 Folio: 110 Page Number: 19
John Mealy 60 widower
Margaret Bullen 39 dau widow
Alice Walthew 27 dau married bus driver's wife
Marcella Walthew 1
Henry Walthew

lancashireAnn

lancashireAnn Report 4 Mar 2013 00:00

just a (probably daft) thought - I know King Edward 7th name was actually Albert Edward but he was known as 'Bertie'. Copying royalty?

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 3 Mar 2013 23:11

Also:

Births Dec 1880
Walthew Henry West Derby 8b 308
Walthew Henry Hornby West Derby 8b 427

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 3 Mar 2013 21:41

Liverpool, England, Burials, 1813-1974
Name: Henry Hornby Walthew
Birth Year: abt 1853
Age: 65
Burial Date: 24 May 1918
Parish: Walton Park

EDIT: Abode was Walton Workhouse (might have been in the infirmary and not an inmate)

Grave ref looks like 1976 43V. Cost was 10/-

patchem

patchem Report 3 Mar 2013 21:34

I was about to say I could not find an Albert William Hornby birth, but I got this:
Births Sep 1888
WALTHEW Albert William W. Derby 8b 328

Added:
AND
Births Mar 1885
WALTHEW Arthur Hornby W Derby 8b 413

Added:
Not forgetting
Births Mar 1882
Walthew Mabel Hornby W. Derby 8b 452

Added:
Deaths Dec 1882
WALTHEW Mabel Hornby 0 W Derby 8b 344
Deaths Dec 1888
Walthew Florence Hornby 1 W. Derby 8b 266

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 3 Mar 2013 21:25

Worth checking out:

Liverpool, England, Marriages and Banns, 1813-1921 about Alice Mealey
Name: Alice Mealey
Birth Year: abt 1857
Age: 22
Marriage Date: 2 Apr 1879
Parish: Liverpool All Saints
Spouse's Name: Henry Walthew
Father's Name: John Mealey
Spouse Father's Name: Henry Homby

Was Henry Walthew a illegitimate son who later used his father's surname?

There is tree on Ancestry has this family matching the 1911 I posted above.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 3 Mar 2013 21:04

But IF this is the same person as in the birth record above, then it's not our man:

UK, Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919 about Henry Herbert Hornby
Name:
Henry Herbert Hornby
Birth Place:
Liverpool
Residence:
Liverpool
Death Date:
5 Nov 1917
Death Location:
France & Flanders
Enlistment Location:
Liverpool
Rank:
Private
Regiment:
King's (Liverpool Regiment)
Battalion:
10th Battalion
Number:
355759
Type of Casualty:
Killed in action
Theatre of War:
Western European Theatre

CWGC says he was 25, and the son of Robert & Elizabeth Hornby.



patchem

patchem Report 3 Mar 2013 21:01

Is this the family from MarieCeleste's 1911 (Alice age out)
1891 England Census
Henry Hornby Age: 37 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation: Head Spouse's Name: Alice Hornby
Gender: Male Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Everton Ecclesiastical parish: St Cuthbert
County/Island: Lancashire
Registration district: West Derby Sub-registration district: North Everton
ED, institution, or vessel: 30 Piece: 2957 Folio: 34 Page Number: 62
Henry Hornby 37
Alice Hornby 28
Marcellar Hornby 11
Arthur Hornby 5
Albert Hornby 2

Not yet found a 1901 possible.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 3 Mar 2013 20:45

The only Hornby born in West Derby reg district in 3rd qr 1892 is this one:

Births Sep 1892 (>99%)
Hornby Henry Herbert W. Derby 8b 254

Jay

Jay Report 3 Mar 2013 19:58

Interesting as Edward's son Bert was actually Bert Alexander. MC - if this is my grandfather on 1911 where did Edward come from I wonder? So much food for thought here.

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 3 Mar 2013 19:45

A 1911 that has Bert permutations:

HORNBY Head Married F 43 1868 Dock Labourer Lancs Liverpool
HORNBY, Margaret Daughter Single F 16 1895 Lancs Liverpool
HORNBY, Albert William Son Single M 22 1889 Dock Labourer Lancs Liverpool
HORNBY, Bertie Alexander Son Single M 19 1892 Dock Labourer Lancs Liverpool
HORNBY, Henry Son Single M 15 1896 Pawnbrokers Assistant Lancs Liverpool

RG number: RG14 Piece: 22526
Reference: RG14PN22526 RG78PN1325 RD455 SD8 ED13 SN64
Registration District: West Derby
Sub District: South Everton
Enumeration District: 13
Parish: Everton

Address: 22 Sheridan St Liverpool County: Lancashire

The head is actually Alice, I guess she'd be a dock labourer's wife? (EDIT: original does say she's a worker)

Married 26 years, 12 children born - 6 still alive.

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 3 Mar 2013 19:33

You're right Jan - and their Edward is with them as a motor car driver

Gwyn in Kent

Gwyn in Kent Report 3 Mar 2013 19:32

Those parents' marriage.....

Marriages Mar 1885
Florety Edward .. Liverpool 8b 255
Perris Edith .. Liverpool 8b 255

brummiejan

brummiejan Report 3 Mar 2013 19:29

It's def. Florety - they appear 1911 also.
Jan

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 3 Mar 2013 19:28

This is the FMP version of that Ancestry 1901:

PERRIS, Florence Head Single F 31 1870 Housekeeper Domestic Liverpool, Lancashire
PERRIS, Charles Brother Single M 29 1872 Painter & Paper Hanger Liverpool, Lancashire
PERRIS, Louisa Sister Single F 27 1874 General Servant Domestic Liverpool, Lancashire
FLORETY, Edith Sister Married F 39 1862 Shop Keeper Grocer Liverpool, Lancashire
FLORETY, Edith Niece Single F 15 1886 Shop Assistant Grocer Liverpool, Lancashire
FLORETY, Ellen Niece F 13 1888 Drapers Assistant Liverpool, Lancashire
FLORETY, Florence Niece F 11 1890 Liverpool, Lancashire
FLORETY, Edward Nephew M 8 1893 Liverpool, Lancashire
FLORETY, John Nephew M 3 1898 Liverpool, Lancashire
FLORETY, Harold Nephew M 0 (10 MOS) 1901 Liverpool, Lancashire

Piece: 3485 Folio: 127 Page: 28
Registration District: West Derby
Civil Parish: Everton

Address: 44, Fowler Street, Everton County: Lancashire

The "FL" on Florety is definitely an "H" as there's a Hughes written the same way. I do think the name may be Hornby.