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Brick wall - my grandfather's birth details

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Flip

Flip Report 3 Mar 2013 15:47

Thanks MC, I don't have a FMP sub, but I guess you've not found him prior to his enlistment in 1917?

And yes, argilegran you're right - it wouldn't explain his non-existance in 1901.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 3 Mar 2013 15:07

If he was at sea, that could certainly explain why he isn't on the 1911 census.

Doesn't explain 1901, when he would have been 9.
Nor lack of birth record.
Unless, as already suggested, his birth name wasn't Hornby.

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 3 Mar 2013 15:06

Flip, it was on FMP. I think it may be 1919 (there's very little info on it) so obviously after his war service.

Flip

Flip Report 3 Mar 2013 15:05

Where did that record come from MC & what year was it?

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 3 Mar 2013 14:46

This might be a red herring but thought I'd post even if just to eliminate:

Merchant Navy Seamen 1835-1941

Last name: HORNBY
First names: Edward
Age:
Day of birth: 14
Month of birth: July
Year of birth: 1892
Place of birth: Liverpool
County/country of birth: Lancashire
Card type: CR10
Discharge number: 898028
Identity certificate no.: 436590
Series: BT350
Date range: 1918-1921
Piece number:

There's a photo of this chap.

The rating looks like "fim"

EDIT: Just looking back on page 1 I see the birthdate matches his service record

Have sent the record by pm to Jay.

Flip

Flip Report 3 Mar 2013 14:33

Thinking about a similar situation with my grandmother - she was born Jackson (1892), but on the 1911 census was down as Thompson - she named her father Thomas Jackson on her marriage in 1912 (although he was actually Thomas Thompson, her stepfather). Wonder if there was a similar situation, although I can't see a birth for Edward Hornby in England/Wales or Ireland, and not in Scotland either as posted by argilgran.

Maybe check out national archives to try to find his previous military record in the fleet auxiliary?

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 3 Mar 2013 12:31

He does not appear in Scottish or Irish censuses for 1911 or 1901, either, and birth not reg in Scotland - at least not as Hornby.

Flip

Flip Report 3 Mar 2013 11:24

According to his army enlistment he had previously been in the RN fleet auxiliary, and he was a marine fireman - so he must have served at some point before his enlistment in 1917.

Added: I've sent you a PM with his enlistment paper showing his occupation and mention of previous service.

Jay

Jay Report 3 Mar 2013 11:11

Thanks everyone, unable to go through all suggestions until pm today but - Jane's mother did live at 44 Gordon st, Arkwright St and Conway st were close by. I do know that Edward had an accident when he was burned but I don't know when that was. He did work for Harland & Wolf so I suspect he may not have been a mariner and also there was never mention of this (being at sea) in the family.

Flip

Flip Report 3 Mar 2013 07:59

I don't think his birth was reg England/Wales - at least not under the given name.

The one reg Prestwich is with his parents on census - father James - living north Manchester. The one reg Garstang has parents William and Grace (nee Isles). One in Hunslet is son of Robert. The one reg Birkenhead was with his mother Mary on the census she was a widow formerly Mary Martin - she married Richard Hornby in 1890.

Possible he was registered under his mothers name and assumed the name of Hornby if his mother later married? Though why he's not showing up on census is a bit strange.

jansmith

jansmith Report 3 Mar 2013 02:41

Ann yes it stats ships fireman on army papers as occupation

lancashireAnn

lancashireAnn Report 3 Mar 2013 00:13

mmm ......it did not actually say Everton on the certificate - just assumed it was as the marriage was at st Peter's Everton

brummiejan

brummiejan Report 3 Mar 2013 00:07

Completely wrong area, must be a strange co-incidence surely? I know there is an Arkwight St Everton also:

1911 England Census

Name: William Hornby
Age in 1911: 73
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Seaforth, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Bolton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 84 Arkwright St Bolton
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Mineral-Water Box Maker
Registration district: Bolton
Registration District Number: 461
Sub-registration district: Little Bolton

William Hornby 73
Mary Ellen Hornby 71
Elizabeth Hermine Hornby 40
Thomas Baldwin Hornby

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 3 Mar 2013 00:02

brummiejan -
Sorry - I had come to that conclusion myself, and deleted the 1911 census before I saw your post.

lancashireAnn

lancashireAnn Report 2 Mar 2013 23:59

interestingly Jane Naylor lived at 44 Gordon St in 1911 - close to that enlistment address

wonder why he did not enlist until 1917

lancashireAnn

lancashireAnn Report 2 Mar 2013 23:55

As Edward was a fireman on his marriage I wonder if that meant a fireman on a ship as in Liverpool was often the case. He could have been at sea in 1911 making him rather hard to identify.

both Edward and Jane gave their address as 84 Arkwright St Everton so not really much help

brummiejan

brummiejan Report 2 Mar 2013 23:53

Not sure about that one argyllgran - the age is consistent on both census, and he married 1913!
Jan

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 2 Mar 2013 23:37

Is this him in 1901?
Don't know what relation he is to the Henry listed here, though, and DOB's a bit off.


1901 England Census about Edward Hornby
Name: Edward Hornby
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1899
Relation: Visitor
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Kirkdale
Ecclesiastical parish: North Shore St Paul
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: Kirkdale
ED, institution, or vessel: 36
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 51
Piece: 3470
Folio: 139
Page Number: 10
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Hornby 24
Mary A Hornby 24
Jeffrey Hornby 3
Annie Hornby 27
Edward Hornby 2
Margaret Hornby 5 Months
Louis Hornby 26

brummiejan

brummiejan Report 2 Mar 2013 23:20

I assume this is him? Wife is Jane.

Says daughter Mary born 39 Conway St. 1913 but no Hornby's there 1911. Do you have an address on his marriage cert?

British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920 about Edward Hornby
Name: Edward Hornby
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1893
Age at enlistment: 24
Residence: 39 Gordon Street, Liverpool
Document Year: 1917
Regimental Number: 30797
Regiment Name: York and Lanc Regt
Number of images: 17

Jan

Reggie

Reggie Report 2 Mar 2013 23:15

What was Edward's occupation when he married?