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Brick wall - my grandfather's birth details

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 3 Mar 2013 12:31

He does not appear in Scottish or Irish censuses for 1911 or 1901, either, and birth not reg in Scotland - at least not as Hornby.

Flip

Flip Report 3 Mar 2013 14:33

Thinking about a similar situation with my grandmother - she was born Jackson (1892), but on the 1911 census was down as Thompson - she named her father Thomas Jackson on her marriage in 1912 (although he was actually Thomas Thompson, her stepfather). Wonder if there was a similar situation, although I can't see a birth for Edward Hornby in England/Wales or Ireland, and not in Scotland either as posted by argilgran.

Maybe check out national archives to try to find his previous military record in the fleet auxiliary?

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 3 Mar 2013 14:46

This might be a red herring but thought I'd post even if just to eliminate:

Merchant Navy Seamen 1835-1941

Last name: HORNBY
First names: Edward
Age:
Day of birth: 14
Month of birth: July
Year of birth: 1892
Place of birth: Liverpool
County/country of birth: Lancashire
Card type: CR10
Discharge number: 898028
Identity certificate no.: 436590
Series: BT350
Date range: 1918-1921
Piece number:

There's a photo of this chap.

The rating looks like "fim"

EDIT: Just looking back on page 1 I see the birthdate matches his service record

Have sent the record by pm to Jay.

Flip

Flip Report 3 Mar 2013 15:05

Where did that record come from MC & what year was it?

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 3 Mar 2013 15:06

Flip, it was on FMP. I think it may be 1919 (there's very little info on it) so obviously after his war service.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 3 Mar 2013 15:07

If he was at sea, that could certainly explain why he isn't on the 1911 census.

Doesn't explain 1901, when he would have been 9.
Nor lack of birth record.
Unless, as already suggested, his birth name wasn't Hornby.

Flip

Flip Report 3 Mar 2013 15:47

Thanks MC, I don't have a FMP sub, but I guess you've not found him prior to his enlistment in 1917?

And yes, argilegran you're right - it wouldn't explain his non-existance in 1901.

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 3 Mar 2013 15:52

No Flip, that was the only record.

Jay

Jay Report 3 Mar 2013 15:55

Thank you all yet again. MC I'd be interested to see the photo on FMP as I do have just one photo of him myself. Can you remind me of what FMP is please? I have a sub with Ancestry - will that help?

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 3 Mar 2013 15:57

I know it's not actually finding his birth, but he must have been to sea:

New York, Passenger Lists, 1820-1957

Name: Edward Hornby
Arrival Date: 19 Dec 1919
Birth Date: 14 Jul 1892 <<
Birth Location: England
Age: 27
Gender: Male
Ethnicity/ Nationality: British (English)
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: Carmania

His position on the ship was "trimmer".

He was 5' 4" tall and weighed 150lb.

Home address 28 Gordon Street, Liverpool.

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 3 Mar 2013 15:59

Jay, check your message inbox - I've attached the record to a message.

FMP = FindMyPast

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 3 Mar 2013 16:10

????????????

Boston Passenger and Crew Lists, 1820-1943

Name: Edward Hornby
Arrival Date: 17 Jun 1912
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1892
Gender: Male
Ethnic Background: English
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Ship Name: Winifredian
Port of Arrival: Boston, Massachusetts
Last Residence: England
Birthplace: Liverpool, England

Listed as a stowaway!!!

Described as 5' 3" tall with dark hair and grey eyes (matches the service record). A labourer. Scar on left arm

Next of kin is father Henry Hornby of what looks like Gt Houses Pl, Liverpool.

There was another stowaway - John Ward 22, born Birkenhead. his nok was mother Eliza Ward of 117 Beatrice Street, Liverpool.

Don't know if they were two mates on the run together or just two individuals who'd had the same idea.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 3 Mar 2013 16:29

Pure speculation, but there's this Henry Hornby, dock labourer, boarding in west Derby in 1911:


1911 England Census about Henry Hornby
Name: Henry Hornby
Age in 1911: 58
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation to Head: Boarder
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Kirkdale
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 33 Bewley Street
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Dock Labourer
Registration district: West Derby
Registration District Number: 455
Sub-registration district: Kirkdale
ED, institution, or vessel: 23
Piece: 22466
Household Members:
Name Age
James Stanley 56
Mary Stanley 53
Henry Hornby 58
James Meakin 48

lancashireAnn

lancashireAnn Report 3 Mar 2013 16:41

just a minor point

if his birth date was 14 July 1892 he would only have been 19 as the Boston stowaway (he seems to have been consistent with his age elsewhere

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 3 Mar 2013 16:47

Ann, I can't say for definite that it's him.

But, IF it is him stowing away then it would have been less than a month to his 20th birthday .........

patchem

patchem Report 3 Mar 2013 16:49

Argllgran's Henry claims married 33 years, so this?
Marriages Dec 1878
DEANE Annie W. Derby 8b 783
Hornby Henry W.Derby 8b 783
MOSS Richard W. Derby 8b 783
WILLIAMS Hannah W. Derby 8b 783

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 3 Mar 2013 16:53

More detail on 1878 marriage:

Liverpool, England, Marriages and Banns, 1813-1921

Name: Henry Hornby - Bricklayer
Age: Full Age
Marriage Date: 16 Dec 1878
Parish: Stanley St Anne
Spouse's Name: Hannah Williams - full age
Father's Name: Henry Hornby - a Miller
Spouse Father's Name: James Williams - a cart owner

Neither married before, both lived Mill Lane

Witnesses: James Hornby and Margaret Mason.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 3 Mar 2013 16:57

Re stowaway Edward's age in 1912, they probably asked him when he was born, he said 1892, and they assumed age 20.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 3 Mar 2013 17:04

Here are the possible Henry and Hannah in 1881:


1881 England Census about Henry Hornby
Name: Henry Hornby
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Son in Law
Spouse's Name: Hannah Hornby
Gender: Male
Where born: Wavertree, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Wavertree
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address: 100 High St
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Bricksetter (Brick Mkr)

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: Wavertree
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3717
Folio: 5
Page Number: 4
Household Members:
Name Age
James Williams 60
Margaret Williams 59
Hannah Hornby 19
Henry Hornby 23
Henry Hornby 2
John Williams 28
John Farrington 24
Michael Rogers 62

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 3 Mar 2013 17:09

Not sure if these links will work:

http://imageshack.us/a/img801/6016/bostonpassengerandcrewl.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img17/6016/bostonpassengerandcrewl.jpg


Want to see if anyone can make out what Henry Hornby's address might be.