Genealogy Chat

so,is John Parr a dead end then L.A?
Is there any way at all to find out more?
What if i wrote a letter(or email if they have one)to the Church?
Elaine.x

if it is St Helen's there is a possibilty that the records are in the Lancs Archives, depends if there are any missing years to the ones listed in the catalogue. THe churches in Parr were not built early enough. Maybe another email to the Lancs archive specifying S the church of St Helen in St Helen's or St Mary's Eccleston??

or you could wait until I go to the archives in a week or so - definitely not next week as I am not at home

I think we are possibly in the realms of 'most likely' now.

On ancestry there is a John Parr baptised 1794 son of Henry & a William in the same place also son of Henry in 1799

John (probable) 1st son = Henry & 2nd = William

Thnx LA...i'll wait till you go please.
In the meantime i might get a copy of the marriage of John Parr and Betty Twiss,it should give me fathers' name
Have ordered certs before,but cant rem how,and from where?lol
Can i order this marriage cert online?and how please!

Lan OPC aims to cover the parishes of the historic county of Lancashire.
When a church register is full it's sent to some archive, usually the county records office. With modern redistricting, historic Lancs is now coverd by the modern "counties" of Lancashire, Liverpool, Manchester, Cheshire and Cumbria. Each has a county records office (or equivalent). Warrington is now covered by Cheshire - actually, the parish of Warrington, together with its chapelry at Burtonwood, was always in the diocese of Chester.

For the CRO, see: http://archives.cheshire.gov.uk/default.aspx
I see FMP now has the Chester parish regos:
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/content/cheshire/about.html
However, it seems they've not transcribed the Burtonwood baptisms and marrs yet.
The burials are there - 3 of g grandad's 1861 h/h plus a younger bro Peter2 died 1861-71 and are buried in Burtonwood church yard along with Thos's grandad Peter. I've downloaded these images and will send by pm to Elaine. I was particularly keen to see if there was a marginal notation of plot # - I've seen this elsewhere very occassionally, but no luck here.

I had a look at some pics of Burtonwwod:
http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/SJ5692
There's 2 of special interest
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3320141 shows some grave markers in St Michael's kirkyard.
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3320144 shows Burtonwood cemetery (which I now know was opened in 1900).

A look up at http://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html using the OS coords 356500,392800 on the 1895 and 1907 1:2500 scale maps shows the emergence of the new cemetery.
http://www.warrington.gov.uk/info/200745/deaths/89/burial_records/2
shows this cemetery's records only date back to 1900.


Monumental inscriptions can be very informative - here's a couple of my ggg grans':

Here is the relevant Old Deer MI:
113
This stone was erected by WILLIAM SLESSER in Mintlay(sic) in memory of his affectionate wife MARGARET MURRAY d 19 Feb 1805 a68; the above WILLIAM SLESSER d28Nov. 1806 a69. Their dau JANNET SLESSOR (sic) d 24 Mar1811 a 31. This is inscribed by their son WILLIAM SLESSER in memory of his wife CHRISTIAN SLESSER d 20Jan 1857 a 62. Also the last mentioned WILLIAM SLESSER , Hillhead, Mintlaw d 2 Dec 1865 a 83.
[I imagine the transcriber abbreviated a=aged, d=died]

Here there's an online index and a booklet available from ANEFHS which shows
booklet: Kirkyard of Turriff (AA189)
burial ground: Turriff
stone: 164
Alexander Anderson 20 Oct 1874
Elizabeth Scott 31 Jul 1875
Margaret Watson 22 Nov 1890
Alexander Anderson 19 Jun 1908
However, the full text says:
1876
Erected
by
Alexander Anderson
Hill of Ardmiddle in memory
of his son Alexander
who died 20th Oct'r 1874
aged 21 years
also his mother
Elizabeth Scott who died
31st July 1876 aged 80 years
also his wife
Margaret Watson who died
22nd Nov 1890 aged 71 years
The above Alexander Anderson
died 19th June 1908 aged 83 years

Note in Aberdeen at that time, married women were buried under their Maiden Surname (true even of my ggg gran Christian).
Also, in the US, if Mary Smith wed David Jones, she'ld likely be buried as Mary Smith Jones - what is it with England, eh?


Anyways, this is worth following up on:

St. Michael and All Angels, Burtonwood : monumental inscriptions of the churchyard
Statement of Responsibility: recorded by members of the Warrington Group of the Liverpool Family History Society
Authors:
Liverpool & District Family History Society. Warrington Group (Added Author)
Church of England. Parish Church of Burton-Wood, (Lancashire) (Added Author)
Format: Books/Monographs/Book with Film
Language: English
Publication: Cheshire : Liverpool & District Family History Society, Warrington Group, 1984
Physical: 14 p. : maps.
ISBN: 187124725X
Subject Class: 942.72/B22 V3
Notes
Cover title: Warrington : Monumental inscriptions of the churchyard, St. Michael and All Angels, Burtonwood.
Includes index.
Burton-Wood is a chapelry in Warrington Parish.
No circulation to family history centers.
Subjects
England, Lancashire, Burton-Wood - Cemeteries England, Lancashire, Warrington - Cemeteries
Copies
Call Number Location Collection/Shelf Availability
942.72/B22 V3sm Family History Library BRITISH Book Available
Film Notes
Note Location Film/DGS
Also on microfilm. Salt Lake City : filmed by the Genealogical Society of Utah, 1990. on 1 microfilm reel ; 35 mm. Family History Library BRITISH Film 1656928 Item 3

http://www.warrington.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/ has a "contact us" link

You can do a search at https://familysearch.org/catalog-search
I searched for Burtonwood and got no hits - they wanted Burton-wood:
In addition to the non-circulating MIs of the previous post, there's one other item of interest:

Parish registers of Burton-Wood, 1668-1942.
Authors: Church of England. Parish Church of Burton-Wood, (Lancashire) (Main Author)
Format: Manuscript/Manuscript on Film
Language: English
Publication: Salt Lake City, Utah : Filmed by the Genealogical Society of Utah, 1990
Physical: on 2 microfilm reels ; 35 mm.
Notes
Microfilm copy of original record in the Cheshire Record Office, Chester, England.
Burton-Wood was formerly a chapelry in the parish of Warrington. The chapel is St. Michael.
Cheshire Record Office no.: P144/1-4.
Subjects
England, Lancashire, Burton-Wood - Church records England, Lancashire, Warrington - Church records
Film Notes
Note Location Film/DGS
Baptisms 1668-1922; Burials 1783-1812; Marriages 1879-1906. Family History Library BRITISH Film 1655853 Items 3 - 11
Marriages. 1901-1942; Burials, 1813-1882; Burials, 1882-1931. Family History Library BRITISH Film 1655854 Items 1 - 3


There are FS FHCs in Derry, Coleraine and Belfast, plus Dublin, Limerick and (temp closed) Cork.
You can rent FS films thru FHCs to view at one of their FHCs - phone the most convenient one for more details.
See the FS home page for contact details, times, etc.:
https://familysearch.org/

There are also Cheshire records at:
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1®ion=UNITED_KINGDOM_IRELAND
Presumably their transcription is tied to FMP's somehow.

WOW!!! Mgnv.....am going to print out all this,so I can sit and take it all in.
There must be a way of printing from here,bit I haven't found it!
I copy and paste,compose an email and send to my email address,then,when I get the email,I can print it out!
Long way round,but it works!

Thank you so much for all the hard work.
Elaine.x

there are no marriage certificates before 1837 so the only details of the maariage you will find are the ones you put in your opening post from lan-opc

nice to see you have managed to put a picture (avatar) on

mgnv has given you some great links there

I had not noticed when looking at the Lancs archives (LRO) that they do actually have some MI's for Burtonwood so I could look at those as well though the burials are online and there is no appropriate John but there may be other clues as there is a Will age 6 & a Henry age 4 sons of Henry in the 1790's

haha...didnt know what an avatar was!

Joy Kentish Maid told me how to do it....not a v good pic,but looks better than a blank head!
I like to see who i'm talking to,too!
Am going to take a good look later,at mgnv's info.
Elaine.x

Here's a lookup of 3 adjacent 1851 h/h's

Piece Folio Page Full name Registration district Transcript Image
HO107 /2195 452 45 SHAW, William Prescot a=26 pob=Parr Coal Miner
HO107 /2195 452 45 SHAW, Ellen Prescot a=25 pob=Burtonwood
HO107 /2195 452 45 WHITFIELD, John Prescot a=38 pob=Burtonwood Railway Plate Layer
HO107 /2195 452 45 WHITFIELD, Margaret Prescot a=24 pob=Parr
HO107 /2195 452 45 WHITFIELD, Peter Prescot a=3 pob=Parr
HO107 /2195 452 45 WHITFIELD, Ellen Prescot a=7m pob=Parr
HO107 /2195 452 45 KNOWLES, Thomas Prescot a=25 pob=Parr Coal Miner
HO107 /2195 452 45 KNOWLES, Elizabeth Prescot a=22 pob=Burtonwood

Looks like a double wedding:
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1850
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
WHITFIELD Ellen SHAW William St Thomas Eccleston St Helens C2/1/123
WHITFIELD Elizabeth KNOWLES Thomas St Thomas Eccleston St Helens C2/1/124

Marriage: 13 Jan 1850 St Thomas, Eccleston, Lancs.
William Shaw - 25 Miner Bachelor of Parr
Ellen Whitfield - 24 Spinster of Parr
Groom's Father: Richard Shaw, Miner
Bride's Father: Peter Whitfield, Farmer
Witness: Peter Whitfield; Margaret Whitfield, (X)
Married by Banns by: Alfred Hewlett Off. Min.
Register: Marriages 1841 - 1858, Page 62, Entry 123
Source: LDS Film 1849656

Marriage: 13 Jan 1850 St Thomas, Eccleston, Lancs.
Thomas Knowles - 23 Miner Bachelor of Parr
Elizabeth Whitfield - (X), 20 Spinster of Parr
Groom's Father: Joseph Knowles, Miner
Bride's Father: Peter Whitfield, Farmer
Witness: Thomas Ramsdale; Ellen Whitfield
Married by Banns by: Alfred Hewlett Off. Min.
Register: Marriages 1841 - 1858, Page 62, Entry 124
Source: LDS Film 1849656

I think this is strong, but circumstantial, evidence supporting LanAnn's conjectured 1841 family.

Note that Ellen says Peter's a farmer in 1850 - Eliz follows along with this.

thnx M.....i might be thick,but whats h/hs and pob ? I know its prob summat simple,but i cant see it..sorry.
I have these two written down..marked em "sisters of John?",but hadnt taken notice that they were the same date!

pob = place of birth

h/h = head of household

thankyou...knew it would be something simple!

I also found the Shaws...
1891 UK Census..137,Broad Lane.,B/wood

head..Peter Whitfield(68)..b.B/wood
sister..Margaret Whitfield(70)
br in law..William Shaw(66)..b.Parr.,St Helens...coal miner
sister..Ellen Shaw(65)..b.B/wood
nephew..Piers Shaw(28)..b.Parr.,St Helens...labourer
nephew ..Thos Shaw(26)..b.Parr.,St Helens...engine fitter
nephew.. James Shaw(4).,b.B/wood
nephew..Wm Shaw(34)..b.Parr.St Helens..labourer

HUGE gap between James age 4 and Thos(26) !


1901 UK Census. 6,Broad Lane.,Burtonwood.

head..Ellen Shaw(75)..Widow..b.B/wood.
son..William Shaw(45)..b.Parr...woodsawyers labourer.
son..Piers Shaw(37)..b.Parr..platelayer on railway.
grandson..James Shaw..b.B/wood..

Ah,..so James is grandson of Ellen,so gt nephew(?)of Peter Whitfield in 1891?


1911 UK Census..Broad Lane.,Burtonwood.

head..James Shaw(52)..b.Parr...coal miner.,hewer
dau..Ellen Shaw(21)..b.Parr
dau..Lily Shaw(9)..b.Parr
dau..Bessie Shaw(6).,b.Parr
dau..Christine Shaw(4)..b.B/wood
bro..Peter Shaw(48)..b.Parr...per way(?)platelayer on railway
bro..William Shaw(54)..b.Parr...asst woodsawyer
wife..Margaret Shaw(44)...b.Southport
son..James Shaw(24)..b.B/wood...clerk.colliery
son..Richard Shaw(23)..b.Parr...clerk.colliery
son..John W Shaw(17)..b.Parr...pit sub repairer.surface
son..Thomas E Shaw(13)..b.Parr...brewers hand
son..Peter Shaw(11)..b.Parr..scholar
son..Frederick Shaw(11)..b.Parr...scholar
son..Alfred Shaw(1)..b.B/wood

Peter and Frederick=twins?

Poor Margaret...all them lads and no little girl to help her! lol

Clarification - I use h/h as an abbrev for household (and pob for place of birth).

thnx M...LancsA. put me right! lol

I,ve just been copying out,longhand,the Whitfields i all the UK censuses from 1841 to 1911,and I now believe that the baptism I have for John,b.c1811 is correct,cos nearly all the Whitfields ages vary from census to census!!

Elaine - in future, I'ld recommend that you don't make hand-written notes, but instead, make a copy of the transcription as you save the image.

So start by getting a file to save the image in. Go to the start button - All programs - Accessories - then double-click on Notepad.
Notepad is a (rather elementary) word processor - there are alternatives. Actually, I use notepad often enough that instead of double-clicking on it, I right-clicked and created a shortcut.
This appears in the Accessories folder as Notepad(2) - so I then right-click on that, select Cut, then right click on my desktop and select paste - I then drag the icon to a suitable place, click on the title "Notepad(2)", click again, and rename the title as just "Notepad". In future, I can double-click on the desktop icon to open a new Notepad file.
After I've finished pasting stuff into the file, I'll save it as Whitfield.txt or whatever - I've got a file for each grandparent for self and spouse, and one file for all the more recent stuff (starting at each grandparents marr).

Anyways, turning to the transcription, say it's for g grandad Thos in 1881:

1881 England Census about Thomas Whitfield
Name: Thomas Whitfield
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Margaret Whitfield
Gender: Male
Where born: Atherton, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Atherton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: Meal House Lane
Education:

Employment status:

Subscribe now to see this information.
Occupation: Store Keeper (Fact Lab)
Registration district: Leigh
Sub-registration district: Atherton
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3809
Folio: 10
Page Number: 13
Household Members:
Name Age
Margaret Whitfield 52
Margaret Whitfield 19
Thomas Whitfield 16
Sarah E. Whitfield 11

So I copy and paste the transcription into the file.
It's fine for now, but say a month later, I'm focused on his mum, or a sib - I should put everyone's details there. So I click on the
Neighbors: View others on page
link and I see another mob of Whitfields (when I look at the image, I see they're in the same h/h, so I'll add them now:

William Whitfield 23
Winifred Whitfield 25
Margaret Emily Whitfield 4
Mary Ellen Whitfield 1

There is some confusion here - Wm is described as son, but his wife and daurs are described as such rather than daur-in-law and granddaurs, which is their relation to the head of the h/h.
Anyways, now I've got everyone on the page, this summary shows the pob and relation to head of h/h. I copy and paste thes onto my transcription.
Strictly speaking, they're not in the census form order, but it's so much easier to copy the two cols as is.
Next, I look at the image itself, and add the stuff that's not transcribed. Normally on Ancestry, this is marital status, occup, disability, and street address, so I add these. Also ages of kids under 1 y o are usually blank, so I add those.
Next, I check the image against the transcription, and if I disagree with Ancestry, I add my version in []'s
Finally I remove redundant stuff from the transcription, and maybe reformat it to get:


1881 England Census
Civil parish: Atherton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: Meal House Lane
Occupation: Store Keeper (Fact Lab)
Registration district: Leigh
Sub-registration district: Atherton
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Piece: 3809 Folio: 10 Page Number: 13

Margaret Whitfield 52 Parr St Helens, Lancashire, England Head
Margaret Whitfield 19 Atherton, Lancashire, England Daughter
Thomas Whitfield 16 Atherton, Lancashire, England Son
Sarah E. Whitfield 11 Atherton, Lancashire, England Daughter
William Whitfield 23 Atherton, Lancashire, England Son (Head)
Winifred Whitfield 25 Atherton, Lancashire, England Wife
Margaret Emily Whitfield 4 Atherton, Lancashire, England Daughter
Mary Ellen Whitfield 1 Atherton, Lancashire, England Daughter

=====================

Here's an FMP 1911 transcription I got when England played in the World Cup (so it's my folks, not Whitfields):

Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born Original
census
image

MCCANN, Thomas Head Married M 58 1853 Collier Coal Miner Hewer Wigan Lancashire VIEW
MCCANN, Margaret Wife Married
36 years F 55 1856 Nurse Wigan Lancs VIEW
MCCANN, Margaret Daughter Single F 24 1887 Cotton Mill Hand Cotton Spinner Wigan Lancs VIEW
HACKETT, Alice Daughter Married
14 years F 35 1876 Seamstress Sewing Machinist Babylinen Wigan Lancs VIEW
HACKETT, Ellen Daughter Single F 12 1899 School Wigan Lancs VIEW
HACKETT, Annie Daughter Single F 9 1902 School Wigan Lancs VIEW
HACKETT, Robert Son Single M 7 1904 School Wigan Lancs VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
22979 Reference:
RG14PN22979 RG78PN1345 RD458 SD3 ED7 SN213

Registration District:
Wigan Sub District:
Wigan Enumeration District:
7 Parish:
Wigan

Address:
7 Westmoreland Street Whelley Wigan County:
Lancashire


Mostly, I just reformat here - just need to add # births/living

MCCANN, Thomas Head Married M 58 1853 Collier Coal Miner Hewer Wigan Lancashire VIEW
MCCANN, Margaret Wife Married F 55 1856 Nurse Wigan Lancs VIEW
MCCANN, Margaret Daughter Single F 24 1887 Cotton Mill Hand Cotton Spinner Wigan Lancs VIEW
HACKETT, Alice Daughter Married F 35 1876 Seamstress Sewing Machinist Babylinen Wigan Lancs VIEW
HACKETT, Ellen Daughter Single F 12 1899 School Wigan Lancs VIEW
HACKETT, Annie Daughter Single F 9 1902 School Wigan Lancs VIEW
HACKETT, Robert Son Single M 7 1904 School Wigan Lancs VIEW
[Margt: marr 36y; 8 live births; 6 still living. Alice: marr 14y; 7 live births; 3 still living]
Registration District:Wigan
Sub District:Wigan
Enumeration District:7
Parish:Wigan
Address:7 Westmoreland Street Whelley Wigan
County:Lancashire
Reference: RG14PN22979 RG78PN1345 RD458 SD3 ED7 SN213

Hold yer horses M ! I'm not that flipping clever! Lol
When I have tried to put things in folders(pics etc),they always go walkabout on me!
Think I'll have to stay with the longhand!
But there's something comforting,and normal,holding a piece of paper in your hand and reading from it! Lol
I have a similar system to you,but mines not on comp....I have a folder for each line.,eg..Parr.,Whitfield.,Evans.,etc.
Am going over everything at the minute,to see did John & Elizabeth Parr die after 1841 census and before 1851 census,cos I can't find em?
Have found deaths and marriages for their children,but think maybe Margaret b.c1828 and Elizabeth b.c1830,might still be home with parents if they still alive in 1851 !

Re William Whitfield,wife and children,for some reason,there is HEAD against Margaret,his mother, and also HEAD against him! So the relationship is between the wife,children and 2nd head,William...does that make sense?

Well,I can't sleep,AGAIN,so I am now going back to the elusive John Parr...STILL looking a birth for him yet,too.

Btw..re your post on 29th Apr,for the ?double wedding?....I found a marriage 18th.Dec.1853.,St.Mary the Virgin.,Prescot....John Parr.,full age.,bachelor.,collier.,Parr TO Margaret Shaw.,spinster.,Parr.
Fathers> John Parr.,collier and Richard Shaw.,collier
Looks like one of my Whitfields and one of my Parrs may have married a brother and sister(Shaws)!

1851 England Census Transcription
Street:BROAD LANE
Parish:BURTONWOOD
City:
County:Lancashire
Division Of County:SOUTHERN DIVISION COUNTY OF LANCASTER
Ecclesiastical District:
Hamlet:
House Name:
House Number:
Parliamentary Borough:
Municipal Ward:
Registration District:WARRINGTON
Enumeration District:1A
Archive Reference:HO107 Piece Number:2202 Folio:261 Page:15

JOHN PARR 1791 60 Parr, Lancs HEAD M Coal Miner
BETTY PARR 1795 56 Parr, Lancs WIFE M
HENRY PARR 1816 35 Parr, Lancs SON M Coal Miner
JOHN PARR 1825 26 Parr, Lancs SON U Coal Miner
ELIZABETH PARR 1830 21 Parr, Lancs DAUGHTER U Housekeeper
AMELIA PARR 1825 26 Parr, Lancs DAUGHTER M
MARY TWIST 1841 10 Parr, Lancs VISITOR
THOMAS PARR 1847 4 Burtonwood, Lancs SON Scholar
JAMES PARR 1794 57 Parr, Lancs BROTHER W Coal Miner
[It does say Twist - I read Thos's age as 11]

[Next h/h but one]
Archive Reference:HO107 Piece Number:2202 Folio:261 Page:15 -> Folio:262 Page:16
ELLEN WHITFIELD 1785 66 Sankey, Lancs HEAD W Farmer of 21 acres of land
PETER WHITFIELD 1822 29 Burtonwood, Lancs SON U Rail Lab
JANE WHITFIELD 1818 33 Burtonwood, Lancs DAUGHTER U Farmer's Daur employed at home
MARGARET WHITFIELD 1821 30 Burtonwood, Lancs DAUGHTER U Farmer's Daur employed at home
PETER WHITFIELD 1850 1 Burtonwood, Lancs GRANDSON Scholar
[I read wee Peter's age as 10]

EDIT
Marriage: 15 Jun 1846 St Mary the Virgin, Prescot, Lancashire, England
Henry Parr - (X), Full Collier Bachelor of Parr
Amelia Smith - (X), Full Spinster of Parr
Groom's Father: John Parr, Collier
Bride's Father: Edward Smith, Blacksmith
Witness: James Young; Margaret Young, (X)
Married by Banns by: J. Crump
Register: Marriages 1845 - 1854, Page 16, Entry 31
Source: LDS Film 1657597