Genealogy Chat

Hi

I am stuck!

So far I have managed to trace my great, great, great granddad David Raysbrook he was born about 1823. I have found his marriage certificate and census records but I cannot find his birth record. He married Ann Harper in 1851 at the parish church in Croydon.On his marriage record his father George Raysbrook is named.

I tried to search it and it produced nothing. But I had one other lead to go on. I have spoken to a family member and she mentioned a Rachel Raysbrook who apparently killed her husband Jonathon Orme. As she hadn't been a child in any other marriage I have found. So I searched for her and found her marriage and a census stating she was a maid age 15 for Jonathon Orme senior and his grandson Jonathon Orme. Now in 1847 she married a Jonathon Orme and on the marriage certificate her father was George Raysbrook.

So knowing this I looked a little harder and found an electrol which has evading me ever since stating that George, David and Rachel all lived together at one point. I didn't get any other information than that though.

Please help me

Thanks Amy :-) ;-)

Hi Amy.

Firstly, I assume you know there are no birth, marriage or death indexes before 1837? (Assuming this is England/Wales we are talking about). You need to look for a baptism - try Familysearch site.

Have you found your ggg grandfather in 1841? And check out the witnesses on the marriage cert, who might be family members and so possibly offer some more clues.

There are several members here who would be happy to advise you if you wish to post details.

Jan

Registration of BMD's only started in 1837 in England and Wales and later in Scotland.

Before that you need Parish Records for Baptisms etc. Some are on line, but many are not. If you have him on a census you will know where he was born and when, although you have to remember that not everyone knew how old they were.

http://www.genuki.org.uk/

This is quite a good site for starters, and also

https://familysearch.org/

If you give location info, we can give you more specific advice.

When was the marriage?

I have updated the post with as much info as I know. if that helps you reggie

Hello Amy, welcome to the community boards.

Various sites have different sets of parish records (which, as stated, you will need for births pre-1837) - that's if the parish records are on line for the area that you are researching.

The way that these boards work is that the members who help out may have subscriptions for other sites holding the appropriate records and can assist in that way, or may be able to point you in the right direction to further your research.

So, if you can give us the details of who your ancestor was we'll take it from there.

and thank you I didn't know that! as you might of guessed I am new to this.

Posts obviously crossed - see opening post now edited with necessary info.

O and I did find somthing saying that Rachel who must be sister to David that she wasn't born in this country. I think David was born in Stock Essex or that's where a census said but I cant find a record for it anywhere.

Sorry if all my information is jumbled.

And thank you all for your help :-D

I'm puzzled about Electoral Rolls as women wouldn't have had the vote back then?

Might not of been that I have been on all sorts of sites and have confused myself completely. I have now come to the conclusion I need help. So I am reaching out to all you good people for some guidance.

There is a very well researched tree on Ancestry which shows that Rachel later married a Henry Harris in 1848, soon after Jonathan Orme died. She went on to have three children with Harris. They then divorced in 1858. This is all documented.

Parents given as George Raysbrook 1795 - 1854 and Mary Freeman 1780 - 1857. These people aren't documented.

you are amazing :-D thank you! so when you say they aren't documented what exactly does that mean?

There is an Ancestry tree with this family. Rachel re-married a Henry Harris in 1848 (the image of the cert shows she was a widow, I would think it's correct as the name is pretty unusual).

According to them parents were:


George Rushbrook/Raysbrook
1778 – 1854

Mary Freeman
1780 – 1857

Jan

I have read about Henry. There is documents of her divorce. Rachel sounds very volatile in her relationships she was going to stab him with some scissors and threw a jug at him.

Amy, when I say they aren't documented I mean there are no records attached to support the dates and events mentioned.

There are a number of articles in the British Newspaper Archives (you can search them on here). Henry Harris is mentioned as a lodger. It reads as though the circumstances of Orme's death were inconclusive - he may have suffered from dementia (he was 76 when he died) and was subject to neglect. He had actually been sent away from his home in London to the country for "the air" - he died in a cottage in Stock, Essex.

I know I shouldn't surmise, but were Rachel and David in cahoots? Hmmmm

EDIT: Another newspaper report states it was Rachel's mother's cottage where Orme's body was found.

I had a look at the 1851 marriage certificate for David Raysbrook, he's listed as a bachelor and a servant and his father is given as George Raysbrook, a grocer.

This might be a complete coincidence:

Parish Record Collection - Marriage Record

Groom's First names: David
Groom's surname: Raysbrook
Groom's parish:
Groom's Age: Full
Marriage year: 1847
Marriage month: Jun
Marriage day: 14
Parish: St George, Hanover Square
County: Middlesex
Bride's First names: Elizabeth
Bride's surname: Gollop
Bride's parish:
Bride's Age: Full
Record source: Westminster Marriages- Transcripts
Data provider: Westminster Archives

This David is a bachelor and a servant and his father is also George, but listed as a labourer.

Marriages Jun 1842 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------------
ORME Jonathan Wandsworth &c 4 460
RAYSBROOK Rachel Wandsworth 4 460

(her first Marriage)


License Date:22 Jun 1842
License Year:1842
Bride Surname:RAYSBROOK
Dual Date:22 Jun 1842
Groom Surname:ORME
Record source:Vicar-General Marriage Licence Allegations 1694-1850 (Find My Past)
Data provider:Society of Genealogists


1841 (Find My Past) (Reference)
ORME, Jonathan M 65 1776
ORME, Jonathan M 7 1834
RAYSBROOK, Rachel F 15 1826
Piece: 1053
Book/Folio: 1/46
Page: 12
Registration District: Wandsworth & Clapham
Civil Parish: Clapham
Municipal Borough:
Address: Albion Terrace, Clapham
County: Surrey
(Not born in County, for all)


Deaths Dec 1847 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------
Orme Jonathan Chelmsford 12 37

Deaths Mar 1848 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------
Orme Jonathan Chelmsford 12 42


Chris :)

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/s/res?_q=jonathan+orme

(couple of items above, Will looks to relate to 1848)


Deaths Jun 1854 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------
Rashbrook George Chelmsford 4a 81


Deaths Dec 1857 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------
Rashbrook Mary Chelmsford 4a 89


1851 (Find My Past)
RUSHBROOK, George Head Married M 73 1778 Pauper Ag Lab
Purley, Essex
RUSHBROOK, Mary Wife Married F 72 1779
Runwell, Essex
CLOVER, Mary Lodger Widow F 59 1792
Runwell, Essex
Piece: 1775
Folio: 135
Page: 11
Registration District: Chelmsford
Civil Parish: Stock
Municipal Borough:
Address: Stock
County: Essex


1841 (Find My Past)
Mary Rushbrook Female 60 1781 Essex, England
John Rushbrook Male 23 1818 Essex, England (Ag. Lab)
Joseph Turner Rushbrook Male 16 1825 Essex, England
Parish or township South Hanningfield
County Essex
Registration district Chelmsford
Archive reference HO107
Piece number 325
Book number 17
Folio number 5
Page number 5

(Joseph Turner Rushbrook, son of Mary Ann Rushbrook)


(looking around records, surname has many variants, possibly above)


1861 (Find My Past) (the Stock reference you mention?)
RAYSBROOK, David Head Married M 35 1826 Dairyman
Stock, Essex
RAYSBROOK, Anne Wife Married F 35 1826
Faversham, Kent
RAYSBROOK, Frederick John Son M 7 1854
Ashford, Kent
RAYSBROOK, Mary Anne Daughter F 5 1856
Ashford, Kent
RAYSBROOK, Harriett Eliza Daughter F 2 1859
Ashford, Kent
JONES, Sherilyn Visitor Unmarried M 25 1836 Commercial Clerk
Wales
Piece: 512
Folio: 24
Page: 5
Registration District: West Ashford
Civil Parish: Ashford
Municipal Borough:
Address: By Brook, North Street, Ashford
County: Kent

I am not sure if they would of been in cahoots or not MarieCeleste. I know David and his family moved away after so maybe he was on the run?

Do you think it is possible that Rachel moved down from Essex to help Jonathon look after his child, Jonathon jnr?

I am guessing that maybe Jonathon senior maybe married into Rachels' mums side of the family a sister or something producing a son and she passed away leaving Jonathon and Jonathon alone.

So Rachel being of an age where she could look after a family was sent down there and it turns out the had to marry for whatever reason or do you think it might of been done because she wanted his money?

Would I be able to get some help with trying to piece together why she married so young to a man 50 years her senior, some how I don't think it was for love she doesn't seen the sort.

And thank you muchly to whoever found the parents of Rachel and David, it has stumped me for weeks!!!

Amy :-D