Genealogy Chat

Hi,
Can anyone please shed some light on what British Sub means on an 1861 census return. Place of birth is Spain.
What Im curious about is whether or not she is of Spanish descent or was simply born there by British Parents and is not spanish at all but British, hence British Sub.
Her surname is EDESA which I guess suggests she is of Spanish descent.
Im asking because at the moment I cannot find their marriage cert but the census return is here:
http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1861&indiv=try&h=6635085

Im trying to find out if this William is my x3 great grandfather where the son William aged 7 could be my x2 great grand father William Joseph Holmes. I have my doubts because under hints, the william aged 7 on the census return, hints have him marrying a Mary Togwell. But those are only hints.
Any input would be appreciated

Julie

It means British Subject, which means her parents were British.

The link you give doesn't bring up the record (at least not for me).
Please can you copy /paste the transcription here?

I can't find any record for any Edesa in 1861 on Ancestry - or any year, for that matter, in the UK census.

There are a number of Edesa's in the USA.

If you mean that Edesa was her maiden name, and that she's listed in the census as Holmes, please tell us her first name, and where she was living in 1861.

I'm not sure I've understood your post.

Aha - found her, via the Togwell/Holmes marriage suggestion:

Theresa Holmes
in the 1861 England Census
Name: Theresa Holmes
Age: 37
Estimated birth year: 1824
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Wm Holmes
Gender: Female
Where born: Brit Sub, Spain
Civil Parish: Woolwich
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Woolwich
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Registration district: Greenwich
Sub-registration district: Woolwich Dockyard
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 28
Piece: 404
Folio: 141
Page Number: 4
Household Members:
Name Age
Wm Holmes 43 - Gt Weston, Leicestershire (pensioner, dock labourer)
Theresa Holmes 37
Alice Holmes 15 - Manchester
Maria Holmes 11 - Manchester
William Holmes 7 - Woolwich

William Holmes

in the 1851 England Census
Name: William Holmes
Age: 33
Estimated birth year: abt 1818
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Faresa Holmes
Gender: Male
Where born: Leicestershire Wigton
Civil Parish: Hulme
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
Town: Hulme
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address:
Registration district: Chorlton
Sub-registration district: Hulme
ED, institution, or vessel: 2g
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 58
Piece: 2221
Folio: 193
Page Number: 15
Household Members:
Name Age
William Holmes 33 - gunner (?) and driver in Royal Artillery
Faresa Holmes 26 - Spain ("Terresa" on image)
Alice Holmes 5 - Hulme, Lancs
Ann M Holmes 1 - ditto

Do the places of birth for the two Williams match your ancestors' POB's?

William Helmes
in the 1871 England Census
Name: William Helmes
[William Holmes]
Age: 17
Estimated birth year: abt 1854
Relation: Son
Father's name: William Holmes
Mother's name: Thearasa Holmes
Gender: Male
Where born: Woolwich, Kent, England
Civil Parish: Woolwich
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Woolwich
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Registration district: Woolwich
Sub-registration district: Woolwich Dockyard
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Household schedule number: 14
Piece: 777
Folio: 44
Page Number: 3
Household Members:
Name Age
William Holmes 55
Thearasa Holmes 49
Maria McLead 21
William Helmes 17
George Helmes 9
Charles McLead 1 - grand-daughter of Wm senior
Charlotte Bondry 21 (visitor)

Baptism: 15 Feb 1846 St George, Hulme, Lancashire, England
Alice Holmes - Daughter of William Holmes & Theresa (formerly Eresa) [sic]
Born: 27 Dec 1845
Abode: Hulme Barracks
Occupation: Gunner & Driver, Royal Art'y.
Parents' Marriage: Tower Church, London, 1840
Baptised by: William Whitelegg
Register: Baptisms 1835 - 1846, Page 299, Entry 2391
Source: LDS Film 2113127

Baptism: 18 Feb 1848 St George, Hulme, Lancashire, England
Mary Ann Holmes - Daughter of William Holmes & Teresa (formerly Edesa)
Born: 6 Jan 1848
Abode: Barracks, Hulme
Occupation: Gunner & Driver Royal Artillery
Place of Baptism: Parent's Lodging
Parents' Marriage: Ch. Tower of London 1842
Baptised by: Robt. B. Davies
Register: Baptisms 1846 - 1853, Page 79, Entry 631
Source: LDS Film 2113127

Baptism: 11 Nov 1849 St George, Hulme, Lancashire, England
Annie Maria Holmes - Daughter of William Holmes & Theresa (formerly Harris)
Born: 23 Oct 1849
Abode: 59 Queen St. Hulme
Occupation: Private R. Artillery
Parents' Marriage: London 1838
Baptised by: Chas. Fred. Booker
Register: Baptisms 1846 - 1853, Page 149, Entry 1185
Source: LDS Film 2113127

????

Marriages Sep 1842 (>99%)
BAUKETT Mary Ann Whitechapel 2 484
EAST Eliza Whitechapel 2 484
HARRIS Theresa Whitechapel 2 484 xxxxxxxxxx
HOLMES William Whitechapel 2 484 xxxxxxxxxx
LAKIN Mary Ann Whitechapel 2 484
OXLEY John Whitechapel 2 484
PAISH Richard Whitechapel 2 484
SILVERSIDES John Whitechapel 2 484

Mary Jane Togwell seems to have actually been Mercy, in several records - eg -

Mercy Jane Togwell
in the London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
Name: Mercy Jane Togwell
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 16 Jul 1854
Father's name: William Togwell
Mother's name: Patience Togwell
Parish or Poor Law Union: Woolwich St Mary Magdalene
Borough: Greenwich
Register Type: Parish Registers

I don't immediately see her and her William after marriage - will have a hunt.
(To see if her William's details match the one in the earlier censuses)


EDIT:

Is this a second marriage?

Mercy Jane Holmes
in the London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Mercy Jane Holmes
Spouse: William Law
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 31 Mar 1879
Parish: St Mary Magdalene, Woolwich
Borough: Greenwich
Father Name: William Togwell
Spouse Father: Henry Law
Register Type: Parish Register

So her William Holmes presumably died between 1875 and 1879.
Does that fit with what you know of your William?

It would fit with the Woolwich William in the above censuses, who doesn't seem to be on the 1881, as of course would be the case if he had died..

What records do you have of your William in 1871 and later? Perhaps we can help work back to the right 1861 record.
What was his mother's name? Was she a Teresa, for you to have picked that 1861 record as a possibility?
Where and when was he born? (Presumably 1854 or thereabouts.)

FreeReg Baptism entry on 11 Jul 2016
For information about this place follow the link to Charlton (Greenwich)
If you believe there to be an error in this transcription then please report it to our data manager.
Field Value
County Kent
Place Charlton (Greenwich)
Church name St Luke
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 72
Baptism date 06 Aug 1854
Person forename William
Person abode Cottages Charlton
Father forename William
Father surname HOLMES
Father occupation Gunner R.A.
Mother forename Teresa
Register note Transcriber's suggestion: R.A. = Royal Artillery
Transcriber notes

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Queen Street, Hulme, Chorlton, Lancashire, England

Learn more
Print transcription View image
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Holmes Head Married Male 33 1818 Guard & Driver In Royal Artillery Wigton, Leicestershire, England
Transcription
Ferresa Holmes Wife Married Female 26 1825 - Spain
Transcription
Alice Holmes Daughter - Female 5 1846 - Hulme, Lancashire, England
Transcription
Ann M Holmes Daughter - Female 1 1850 - Hulme, Lancashire, England

Is this the birth of your William Joseph?

Births Jun 1855 (>99%)
Holmes William Joseph Bermondsey 1d 83
HOLMES William Joseph Bermondsey 1d 85

(These are both the same birth, but two readings of the image - I think 85 is correct.)

If so, this looks like your William in 1871, in which case he's definitely not the one with mother Terresa:


William J Holmes
in the 1871 England Census
Name: William J Holmes
Age: 16
Estimated birth year: abt 1855
Relation: Son
Father's name: William J Holmes
Mother's name: Elizabeth M Holmes
Gender: Male
Where born: Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Civil Parish: Bermondsey
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Magdalen
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Registration district: St Olave Southwark
Sub-registration district: Leather Market
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Household schedule number: 32
Piece: 627
Folio: 80
Page Number: 7
Household Members:
Name Age
William J Holmes 42
Elizabeth M Holmes 43
William J Holmes 16
Henry Shadd 17

If that's him, then this is the correct 1861 record:

William J Holmes
in the 1861 England Census
Name: William J Holmes
Age: 6
Estimated birth year: 1855
Relation: Son
Father's name: William J Holmes
Gender: Male
Where born: Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Civil Parish: Bermondsey
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Magdalen
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street address:
Registration district: Bermondsey
Sub-registration district: Leather Market
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 47
Piece: 324
Folio: 82
Page Number: 8
Household Members:
Name Age
William J Holmes 33 - Southwark, Surrey
Elizabeth M Holmes 33 - Peckham, Surrey
William J Holmes 6
Charles Mathews 17 - servant
Thomas Mace 47 - lodger
Catherine Mace 66 - lodger's wife
Charles Pryor 11 - visitor

Wow, thank you Ladies for all the information. To make it clearer / Easier maybe working backwards. I do know for sure that my William Joseph born 1881 in Woolwich (my great grandfather) . Parents: William J Holmes and Sarah E possibly nee Roffey. They married 1876, Woolwich. Both father and son on different census returns are packing box manufacturers.:
1911 William J Holmes and Katherine S (nee Madden) at 64 Ivnerin)e Rd, Charlton Kent. He is a packing box maker
1891: (Pressuming its his father) William J Holmes and Sarah E (nee Roffey) at 2 Hardens Manoway (Cant find them anywhere in 1901) and he is a packing box maker and it has William J (Junior) aged 10.

I am trying to find William Jospeh Seniors parents
Hence why I have been looking at the William and Theresa or William and Mercy Togwell. Im totally stuck on which ones it could be and there are no hints on ancestry lol. I just dont know how to go back further searching for who could be William Joseph Holmes born abt 1856 parents

thanks so much
Julie

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
2, Hardens Manor Way, Charlton and Kidbrooke, Woolwich, London, England

Learn more
Print transcription View image
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William J Holmes Head Married Male 46 1855 Packing Case Maker Charlton
Transcription
Sarah E Holmes Wife Married Female 48 1853 - Charlton
Transcription
Sarah E Holmes Daughter Single Female 21 1880 Relief Stamper Charlton
Transcription
William J Holmes Son Single Male 20 1881 Packing Case Maker Charlton
Transcription
Henry T Holmes Son Single Male 18 1883 Instrument Maker Charlton
Transcription
Eliza L Holmes Daughter Single Female 14 1887 - Charlton
Transcription
Lucy J Holmes Daughter - Female 12 1889 - Charlton
Transcription
Catherine Holmes Daughter - Female 10 1891 - Charlton
Transcription
Matilda N Holmes Daughter - Female 8 1893 - Charlton
Transcription
Beatrice Holmes Daughter - Female 7 1894 - Charlton

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/tips_board/thread/1335782?d=asc

(was he to do with above?)

Chris :)

edits (just adding that 1861 found by AG, from Find My Past, as I was searching for Edesa earlier!)

1861
Wm Holmes Head Married Male 43 1818 Pensioner Dock Lab Great Weston, Leicestershire, England
Theresa Holmes Wife Married Female 37 1824 - Spain
Alice Holmes Daughter Unmarried Female 15 1846 Dressmaker Manchester, Lancashire, England
Maria Holmes Daughter - Female 11 1850 Scholar Manchester, Lancashire, England
William Holmes Son - Male 7 1854 Scholar Woolwich, Kent, England
House number 10
Street Frances Street
Parish Woolwich
Town Woolwich
County London, Kent
Parliamentary borough Greenwich
Ecclesiastical district St Mary
Registration district Greenwich
Enumeration district 6
Archive reference RG09
Piece number 404
Folio number 141
Page number 4


Baptism: 15 Feb 1846 St George, Hulme, Lancashire, England
Alice Holmes - Daughter of William Holmes & Theresa (formerly Eresa) [sic]
Born: 27 Dec 1845
Abode: Hulme Barracks
Occupation: Gunner & Driver, Royal Art'y.
Parents' Marriage: Tower Church, London, 1840
Baptised by: William Whitelegg
Register: Baptisms 1835 - 1846, Page 299, Entry 2391
Source: LDS Film 2113127


Baptism: 18 Feb 1848 St George, Hulme, Lancs.
Mary Ann Holmes - Daughter of William Holmes & Teresa (formerly Edesa)
Born: 6 Jan 1848
Abode: Barracks, Hulme
Occupation: Gunner & Driver Royal Artillery
Place of Baptism: Parent's Lodging
Parents' Marriage: Ch. Tower of London 1842
Baptised by: Robt. B. Davies
Register: Baptisms 1846 - 1853, Page 79, Entry 631
Source: LDS Film 2113127

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/

(from above link)

from your other thread


William H A Holmes on the 1939 Register

1939 Register Transcription

Madden Household (4 People) 76 Woodland Terrace , Greenwich, London, England
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Print
First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
William H A Holmes 15 May 1914 Male Packing Case Worker- Woo Single 292 4
Elizabeth C Madden 26 Jul 1866 Female Unpaid Domestic Widowed 292 1
Doris E S Holmes 21 Jan 1908 Female Telephone Assembler Single 292 2
Elsie K Holmes 22 Feb 1909 Female Telephone Assembler Single 292 3

Ref: RG101/0165F/021/36 Letter Code: © Findmypast Ltd
Open a closed record Request a living person's record
Close an open record Report an error

Births Jun 1914 (>99%)
HOLMES William H R Madden Woolwich 1d 2294

That is my post from over 2 years ago lol
got busy catching up with 40 years of time with my birth father that I found :)Im back on my maternal line now and I am still trying to link the Harden Manor Way family with these ones, any ones in the mid 1800s . William Joseph Holmes born abt 1855, Charlton, Kent.
The other line was the wrong one "they are not the right couple. In 1851 they are in Wolverhampton and looks like they have lost Ann, William is an Iron puddler ."
Julie