Genealogy Chat

I am new to this so apologies...

Is the only way to find out if a man was the Father - to buy a birth certificate?

Jean M David was born illegitimately in Greenwich in 1933.
Her mother was Winifred Jones.
Her Father asked for his name to be put on her Birth Certificate.

I am trying to get confirmation on his name.
Any advice / search tips gratefully received.

If the parents didn't marry then the only way is to buy her birth cert

They seem to have registered her as if they were married as she is only listed as surname David mmn Jones

Not seeing Winifred on the London electoral rolls in Greenwich with a mr David. But the reg distinct covers more than Greenwich so she could be in one of the ares it covers
GREENWICH REGISTRATION DISTRICT

Registration County : London (1837-1965), Greater London (from 1965).
Created : 1.7.1837.
Sub-districts : Deptford Central, Deptford East, Deptford North, Deptford South, Greenwich East, Greenwich South, Greenwich North, Greenwich West, St. Nicholas Deptford, St. Paul Deptford, Woolwich Dockyard, Woolwich Arsenal.
GRO volumes : V (1837-51), 1d (1852-1946), 5C (1946-65), 5B (1965-74), 12 (1974-92).
Registers currently held at : Greenwich and Lewisham.

Think you need to buy the birth cert for its info,

many thanks for replying. so what does the "mmn" inbetween the two surnames mean?

mmn means Mother's maiden name

An illegitimate birth would normally be entered under the mother's surname. If the father admitted paternity he would have to be present at registration, and then the birth would also be registered under his surname as well.

In this case, if the parents weren't married we would expect to see the birth registered as both Jean M Jones and Jean M David.

However- if the father wasn't present, some unmarried mothers registered a child as though she were married.

Do you have any details for Winifred?

I think I've got him- just give me a tick

There is an article in the Illustrated Police News - Thursday 02 August 1934 re Winifred.

William David was the father.

I'll type the details in a minute- this is him on the electoral register in 1933:

London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965

Name: William David
Year: 1933
County or Borough: Greenwich
Ward or Division/Constituency: Greenwich
Street address: Police Station
--------------------------------

Main points from the article are:

Married constable, PC William David was charged with offences against Laura Maude Darke and Winifred Mary Jones. He told them that he was a single man and intended to marry them- but his wife, Margaret was still alive.

Miss Darke was 22 and was expecting William David's child- due in October.

Winifred Mary Jones stated she was 24, and in June 1931 she went to live in a lodging house in Woolwich. She met William David there. One day he took her to Brighton and told her he was very fond of her. They later became engaged and intimate- and in June 1933 she had his child.

William stated that he would have liked to marry Winifred and had been trying to get a divorce from his wife- but had no grounds for a divorce.

William said he knew nothing of Miss Darkes unborn child and did not love her.

William was first married in December 1925 at West Ham register office- there was one child to this marriage- this wife divorced him. He then became acquainted with another young lady who had his child. According to William's wife she thought the child was in Newcastle.

William married again in December 14th 1929 and there were 2 children born to this marriage.

William David was sentenced at the Old Bailey to 15 months imprisonment.

A couple of other articles give his age as 26- so probably just 17 or 18 when he first married in December 1925. They also state his father was William James David- a clerk living at Alma Road, Victoria Park,

This is his birth:- mother was Nellie Frances Field

DAVID, WILLIAM GEORGE (mother's maiden name: FIELD )
GRO Reference: 1907 D Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 500

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
85 Vallentin Road Walthamstow, Walthamstow, London, England
William David Head Married Male Theatrical costumiers Clerk 35 1876 Middlesex Bethnal Green
Nellie David Wife Married Female - 31 1880 Essex 2nd Ward Colchester
Gladys David Daughter - Female - 4 1907 Essex Walthamstow
William David Son - Male - 3 1908 Essex Walthamstow
Leonard David Son - Male 5months 1911 Essex Walthamstow
-----------------------------------

William's first marriage:

First name(s) WILLIAM G
Last name DAVID
Marriage quarter 4
Marriage year 1925
Spouse: Dorothy G Ringe
District West Ham
County Essex
Volume 4A Page 686

(Dorothy later married Sidney Green)
---------------------------------------

William's second marriage:

First name(s) WILLIAM G
Last name DAVID
Marriage quarter 4
Marriage year 1929
Spouse: Margaret M Tumber
District Sheppey
County Kent
Country England
Volume 2A Page 2688

(Margaret later married Frederick Fox)

William in 1939:

Household Reclans Lodsworth , Midhurst R.D., Sussex, England
William G David 13 Nov 1907 Male Ex Police Officer Married
Clara R David 06 May 1910 Female Domestic Married

He didn't marry Clara until 1985- and passed away in 1994

Ah-
This article states that Winifred was using the surname David at the time of the birth- and they were pretending to be married- so all fits with Jean's birth:

Yorkshire Evening Post - Friday 13 July 1934
...Frank William Foulger, chief clerk to the Greenwich Public Health Department, said a woman known as Mrs Winifred David was admitted to the councils maternity home and a child was born 24th June 1933. In making her application for her admission, William David wrote that he was a salesman and not in fulltime employment...

...On David's instructions she registered the birth of the child in his name, and gave his occupation as commercial traveller. She was described as his wife..

AustinQ, wow thanks so much for all that info. Yes I read the newspaper articles! A very busy man!! So I got the mother's and father's names, I just wasn't sure If Jean Mary was 100% the child of that relationship?
Thanks again.

The Yorkshire Evening Post article would seems to suggest she was.
Thanks so much.

I'm pretty certain it's the correct birth- the child was born in a Greenwich maternity home and was registered in the surname David.

I can't see another birth to fit the details given :-)