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A Sad Little Tale - Part 2 (Closed)

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date


Caz Report 17 Aug 2007 15:28

nudging so I can keep up. Caz


Mommylonglegs Report 17 Aug 2007 16:22

Hi Nicola, thanks for getting in touch with us. Welcome to GR. I found your tree on Ancestry late Wednesday evening, it was fascinating. May I ask where abouts you are lving? None of us are related to young Patricia Armstrong. Our main aim is to find out if she had any full or half Siblings. As I live in Tynemouth, which is near Newcastle upon Tyne, I am concentrating on finding any other decendants that may still be in the area. In fact I live just around the corner from Edith Street where William Osman Silmon lived with his family in 1881, the houses are still there. Do you have any contact with any decendants of Sarah Jane Monaghan's and William's children or grandchildren? I am presuming you have seen the Website that has been set up. If not the address is at the begining of this thread. Please keep in touch. Jenny.


Nicola Report 17 Aug 2007 16:59

Hi, I am in contact with Joe Silmon-Monerri who is one of Sarah Jane's grandchildren, I think his father was George. He has given me all of the information I have about the Silmon family and we pasted it together with what I knew about the Monaghan's to make an extensive story but I struggle to remember the details off the top of my head. He has previously mentioned to me his 'Aunt Theresa marrying a Mr WILSON and a Mr Hayes? They lived in either Elswick or Benwell.' but I never knew anything about Patricia. I have now contacted Joe and wait to hear if he knows anymore. What makes this story even more interesting and an even bigger twist of fate is what had already happened beforehand - and I hope ever so much that Joe doesn't mind me sharing this with you... Sarah Jane was first of all married to a Carlo Pasola who was Italian. They went over to Italy to show their two kids off to his parents and family. Then, her husband, a sailor, died at sea in a possible sea battle??. Sarah Jane then had to escape from war-torn Italy with her two children Carlo (aged about 2) and Leonora (aged about 1), not from a war situation, but from her dead husband's parents. They wanted to get rid of her and keep their dead son's kids, which they thought they had a right to do, as grandparents. Sarah Jane escaped, by stagecoach, then by sea, and because she was trying to avoid Newcastle, where the Italian PASOLAs might have followed - to kidnap the children - she went to London. There, around 1876, she got work at the Spanish Embassy, where she first started to work for D. Francisco GISBERT, as a governess to his children. When he was posted abroad, she was allowed to go out with the Mission, so he also became her boss in Morocco. She qualified for this work, not only because she was multi-lingual and a very strict disciplinarian, but because of her status as a widow. This is how she ended up in Tangier where she met Mohamed/William and without this happening Theresa Amina would never have been born (one of many children). Wow thats a lot more stuff there to take in!!! Nikki


Nicola Report 17 Aug 2007 17:12

The Monaghan family is as follows: Francis Monaghan b.c.1835 Ireland married Sarah Ryan/Serrano b.c.1822 Ireland children: John b.1842 Ireland Ann b.1846 Ireland Hugh b.1848 Ovingham, Northumberland =married Emma Mimms Sarah Jane b.1855 Gateshead or Sunderland Theresa b.1857 Gateshead Francis b.1860 Gateshead Winifred b.1869 Gateshead Sarah Jane married Carlo Pasola children: Carlo b.1875, d.1895 Leonora b.1876 Then Sarah Jane married William De Weld Silmon (previously Mohamed Sulmaine but changed his name when he was baptised and became an English citizen) children: Josephine b.1879 William b.1881 Theresa Amina b.31/10/1882 Francis b.1884 Frederick b.1886 George b.1889 Dunstan-Upon-Tyne Marie Cecilia b.1893 Benwell Ruth b.1896 Benwell Luis b.1898 Benwell


Geordie Report 17 Aug 2007 18:47



CherryCrumbles Report 17 Aug 2007 18:53

apologies if this has already been mooted but I had the thought that Henrietta's marriage could have been dissolved for two reasons : 1. William Armstrong never returned home from WW2 but there was no body to confirm he had been killed 2. William Armstrong returned home but due to experiences / injuries was a shadow of his former self and spent his remaining years in a hospital. Whichever is the case, I hope Henrietta found happiness with George Francis. I'll be keeping an eye out for the website to catch up with further developments. Wouldnt it be lovely if this tale found its way to television? It would certainly be a fitting Thank You for the caring and sharing Genes researchers who have pieced this story together at their own expense and who deserve acknowledgement for the time they've all spared to ensure little Patricia does not remain forgotten. Christine


CherryCrumbles Report 17 Aug 2007 19:06

I've just been saying to Paul (and hope he wont mind me repeating) : the man who died in 1998 might not be Patricia's father. Its such a common name. William might never have returned from the war i.e. died in a POW camp in the far East, and buried there. No body after 1945 - no death certificate - ergo the need eventually to have the marriage dissolved. I was sorry to have missed the radio interview but we were away. The progress you are all making is amazing !! Christine


Paul Report 17 Aug 2007 19:38

Hi All, Here we go: Joe is the 1st cousin once removed of Patricia. Civil V Cannon 3 All your hard work is paying off. Well done Paul PS I am absolutely astonished at what has been discovered and the stories from Nikki. Joe Silmon and his background. What a family history. What a treasure chest Patricia would have inherited.


Alan Report 17 Aug 2007 21:26

Hi Looby, I have just been on Pauls web site for Patricia again, all I put in the address line was Good luck, hope you can get on to it soon as its a good site Its a brilliant job everyone involved is doing. Regards Chris


Paul Report 17 Aug 2007 21:30

Hello All, Win Evans has just been on the phone to me. It gave me the opportunity to congratulate him on his radio interview in which I felt he had done Patricia's story justice. Patricia's friend has written to Roy Harris to inform him of events. Win also said that she would like to contact me over the weekend to give me Roy's address. It is now believed that the funeral may have taken place in Morganstown, but due to lack of burial space, Patricia was buried at St. John the Baptist churchyard. Again Win is attempting to gain access to the Bethal Church (Chapel) records to see if he can gleam any information relating to Patricia's funeral. Will keep you posted of any results. Bye Paul


CherryCrumbles Report 17 Aug 2007 21:53

I forget who said it, but someone pointed out that William was younger than Henrietta Maud. This wasnt such an uncommon thing in the past. My mother said once that she believed women looked for younger men to marry because of the mortality rate for men and the average age of death for a female has always been higher than the average age for a male. christine


CherryCrumbles Report 17 Aug 2007 22:05

Hi Margaret. My grandmother was older than my grandfather, and no one in the family thought anything of it. We also knew other people where the wife was older than the husband. Hence my mother's conclusions. Christine

Lady Cutie

Lady Cutie Report 17 Aug 2007 22:14

nudging for later Hazelx


Carter Report 17 Aug 2007 22:36

what a day. all that wonderful family information. patricia really did have some colourful relatives with some fantastic experiences. . keep up the good work everyone is doing great linda x

 Sue In Yorkshire.

Sue In Yorkshire. Report 17 Aug 2007 23:13

I hope no-one thinks I am putting a dampner on the theory about the divorce between Henrietta and William. But if William was abroad in WW2 then she could have been having an affair with the guy that became her 2nd hubby. That was why there was a divorce not because of William's ill health. Sue Brilliant research by everyone and I thank Paul for bringing this story to our attention.


CherryCrumbles Report 17 Aug 2007 23:22

I think that's a very valid point Sue. All possible options must be considered - and the more considering heads there are, the merrier, I think. christine


CherryCrumbles Report 18 Aug 2007 09:20

Added by Margaret Young on 18/08/2007 04:00:52 ---- Added by Christine Clissold on 17/08/2007 22:05:29 Hi Margaret. My grandmother was older than my grandfather, and no one in the family thought anything of it. We also knew other people where the wife was older than the husband. Hence my mother's conclusions. Christine -------------------- In my earlier post where I noticed the age difference I mentioned that my great grandfather was actually older by 17 years to his wife but only 7 years older on the actual certificate. It is well documented that people lied about age and status on marriage certificates because it was such a public event. Census' they tended to tell the truth because like todays society we are threatened with taking to Gaol. And my grandmother was 5 years older than my grandfather btw. I'm sure no one thought anything of it individually or in the family but that wasn't what I was saying. My point was if the man was a lot older or the woman was even slightly younger in the 'normal' society it would be considered out of sorts. My point wasn't that it was bad it was that people lied to save face. Maybe you missed the point. -------------------------------------------------- We all 'miss the point' at some time or other Margaret - especially when people trying to make points do not make themselves perfectly clear as regards what point they are trying to make. I have a long standing belief that Courtesy Costs Nothing and I would never leave (and never have left) impertinent messages for anyone, on a public board, for all to read.


CherryCrumbles Report 18 Aug 2007 09:21

I wish you well Paul with this lovely venture and I will be happy if my earlier contributions were of use. I have been a member of Genes for some time but took a break due to severe arthritis in my hands. However I have several information threads, and while nudging those up I saw your Sad Tale and became intrigued and wanted to help, so got a little involved. However, as I really need to rest my hands I wont be answering PMs or posting again. Christine


Ivy Report 18 Aug 2007 09:35

Hi, Christine I'm sorry about your arthritis, and thank you for all your help across the boards - it's always good to see your hearts! It will be a shame not to hear from you again - so if you are able to post again sometime, please do. All the best


Paul Report 18 Aug 2007 10:54

Hello Christine, I am so sorry to hear about your difficulties with severe arthritis. Your contribution has been gratefully appreciated and will be sadly missed. Hopefully a friend or relative may be prepared to keep you informed of progress since it would be such a shame otherwise after all your help. Will miss your positive contributions. Wishing you well. Bye Paul