Genealogy Chat

Theresa birth record

Name: Theresa Amina Silmon
Year of Registration: 1882
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Newcastle Upon Tyne
County: Northumberland, Tyne and Wear
Volume: 10b
Page: 44 (click to see others on page)

and 1891 census

Name: Theresa Silmon
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1883
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Mohammed W
Mother's Name: Sarah S
Gender: Female
Where born: Newcastle Upon Tyne

Civil Parish: Elswick
Ecclesiastical parish: St Aidan
County/Island: Northumberland
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View Image

Registration district: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Sub-registration district: Westgate
ED, institution, or vessel: 41
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles A Silmon 15
Frank Silmon 7
Frederick Silmon 4
George Silmon 2
Josephine Silmon 11
Mohammed W Silmon 38
Sarah S Silmon 33
Theresa Silmon 8
William Silmon 10

It's arrived, here are the details of Henriettas' birth certificate:

Registration District: Newcastle upon Tyne
1908
Sub district: Elswick
County of Newcastle upon Tyne
No. 24
When & Where born: 2 April 1908, 79 Matilda St
Name: Henrietta Maud
Sex: Girl
Name and Surname of Father: James Anthony Wilson
Name, surname & maiden name of mother: Theresa Amina Wilson formerly Silmon
Occupation of father: Mariner
Signature, description and residence of informant: Theresa Wilson, mother, 79 Matilda Street, Newcastle
When registered: 11 May 1908
Signature of registrar: Jas H Rodgers (?)

This also confirms the marriage of James and Theresa 1904 (see earlier message)

Another nudge.................

BREAKING NEWS! This afternoon at about 4.30pm on BBC Radio Wales Win Evans will be giving an interview with regard to this Sad Little Tale. You can listen through the internet from the BBC Radio Wales website. Mumsy. If you missed it you can get it on Listen Again for the next 7 days it was about 4.45pm. M.

just a nudge

Jenny
I've ordered Henriettas' birth certificate and typically day off today and the postman still hasn't been! I will post details as soon as it arrives unless someone can get details quicker?
I've seen all the same details as you and can't make my mind up, personally I'd go with the 1885 birth. I know that means he would have married at 19 but that wasn't uncommon.
Got to go out now but will be back !! I'm hooked, Paul you have a lot to answer for ;-) lol

Hi Just been on the web page with the updates. I have not personaly seen a death cert for a child and was wondering why her father was only named and not both parents ie. daughter of william and Hen. I was just wondering What if her parents where not together at that time. But would still have thought they would be both named. Sorry i may be well of course on that one. Kate

Hi Maggie, I spoke to Rachel yesturday about the posibility that James Anthony married Theresa Silmom, as Theresa is a well known Catholic name. I found Theresa with her parents and Siblings on the 1901 and 1891 census. William or Mohammed W Silmon was born in the North Africa's. One of the members worked in the Grand Hotel here in Tynemouth. On Freebmd, I see a Births for James Anthony Wilson in 1867, one in 1885, then there is the marriage in Newcastle, then a Birth in South Shields in 1908. I just cannot make up my mind about them. What do you think? Jenny.

Possible marriage of Henriettas' father:

Name: James Anthony Wilson
Year of Registration: 1904
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Newcastle Upon Tyne
County: Northumberland, Tyne and Wear
Volume: 10b
Page: 159 (click to see others on page)

Possibly Williams father. Will send to Paul for inclusion on website if connection can be confirmed.

Description
Medal card of Armstrong, Rendel
Corps Regiment No Rank
Rifle Brigade 202126 Private
Northumberland Fusiliers 3132 Private
Royal Garrison Artillery 319396 Private
Date 1914-1920
Catalogue reference WO 372/1links to the Catalogue
Dept Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies
Series War Office: Service Medal and Award Rolls Index, First World War
Piece A'Alezu - Barnes C E
Image contains 1 medal card of many for this collection

i don't know if anyone has said this but do you think the train company paid for the burial carolina xx

it is possable that he retired from the army just prior to his wedding, but re-enlisted at the out break of war.

Perhaps William did a few years, then re-enlisted or was 'called up' at the outbreak of war.

Looks like service records could be a no go:

Details taken from veterans-uk

Requests from Interested parties
Enquirers must provide a letter of consent, signed by the person to whom the records relate.

Records of Deceased personnel
Enquirers must provide the consent of the Next of Kin and unless the person died in Service, proof of death. A charge may be made for enquiries. Prior to 1972 all Royal Navy personnel were given their service record when they were discharged. For pension purposes the Royal Navy retained pay details. Therefore the only data held on Royal Navy personnel who served prior to 1972 is their Service details (number, rank, name etc) and a list of dates and ships/shore bases.

Certificate of Kinship
Information from the personal record of a deceased Ex-serviceman/woman can be released only with the consent of the official Next of Kin. The form aims to identify whose consent is required and the data you provide will be used only in connection with your enquiry. The form is retained for 2 years should you have subsequent queries. To download the Certificate of Kinship form for the Army, please click here.
For the Royal Navy, please click here.

I've just checked with my parish (Catholic) and a divorcee would not be allowed to marry in the church. If however, William disappeared and wasn't found after 7 years, he could be legally declared dead and Patricia would then have become a widow and would have had permission to re-marry in the church. The fact that she re-married in a registry office (marriage disolved) indicates that she divorced William. Deb:) I've just re-read my posting and realised that I haven't made my point very clear. The Catholic church would have recognised Patricia as a widow after having William legally declared dead. As a widow, the church would have allowed Patricia to re-marry within the church. Because she didn't indicates to me that she was a divorcee.

Terry As with all research there are always slight discrepancies that can never been 100% closed out without speaking to the individual concerned - which isn't always possible. William may have fibbed about his age to get into the army - 30 May 1909 entlisted 12 Jan 1928 - making him 19yrs 8mths. He may have also fibbed or been accurate about his aged when he married Hetty - 23 Apr 1933 aged 22 - making him born approx 1911. The issue over Ex Gunner on his Patricia birth certificate – may be he wasn’t ‘fit’ for active duties but was technically still in the army perhaps with a ‘desk’ job. Unfortunately, getting a service from the MoD from someone you’re related to is difficult, costly and takes an absolute age. For someone not related even more difficult – if anyone has experience of requesting service records in this type of situation - please let me know how you got on. Thanks Rachel

Just a thought. Williams joins the R.A. Enlisted: 12 January 1928 in Newcastle Upon Tyne Discharged: 23rd October 1941 KR390 Xvii (Sickness & Illness) On his marriage cert, he is still serving in the Army as a gunner in 1933 In 1934, on Patricia's birth cert it states that he is an ex gunner. This would mean that he left the Army sometime between 1933/34 and not 1941. I understand that this is not really relevant in the search for any of Patricia's relatives. It's just that the discrepancies in the years caught my eye. Terry

Maggie, See page 17 for marriage which ties in with births of children (in Scotland according to the census) Janice

Just a thought to muddy the waters if you can't trace a divorce - if William Armstrong left his wife after his daughter was born and was unable to be traced by his wife, she would have to wait 7 years before he could be declared dead and she would be free to remarry any time after that. We have experienced this twice within my wider family & ancestors, and when partners remarried after declaring their previous spouses 'dead' their marital status was described as 'previous marriage dissolved', not widowed. Keep up the good work!

Rachel & Paul, once again you are stars. I only went out for the evening and look at what I missed. You really had a good day yesterday. Things are really moving on now. Keep up the good work :-)

Morning recap:

Patricia Armstrong:
b Twelfth March 1934 St Nicolas Hospital Sub-District of Plumstead in the County of London

d 23 May 1943 at the level crossing near Gelynis Farm, Morganstown, Radyr, RD

Mother: Henrietta Maud Armstrong formerly Wilson
Father: William Armstrong


Henrietta Maud Wilson:
b Jun 1908 - Wilson Henrietta Maud - Newcastle T. - 10b 62
Mother ?
Father James Anthony Wilson (Deceased)
Rank or Profession of Father: Seaman Merchant Service

Marriage Dissolved ?

m Twenty Second April 1933 William Armstrong 777708 Gunner R.A.

m Fifth July 1962 George Francis Bus Conductor London Transport Executive

d Nineteenth December 1985; St. Nicolas Hospital, Plumstead


William Armstrong:
b 30th May 1909 (? 10) in Amble Northumberland

Mother Isabel Fisher (? Jenny is this from the certificate?)
Father Randal Armstrong (Deceased)
Rank or Profession of Father: Seaman Merchant Service

Enlisted: 12 January 1928 in Newcastle Upon Tyne
Discharged: 23rd October 1941 KR390 Xvii (Sickness & Illness)

m Twenty Second April 1933 Henrietta Maud Wilson Housemaid

Marriage Dissolved ?


Randall Armstrong:
b March Q 1870 in Bellingham Northumberland

Mother Mary
Father Peter Armstrong

Siblings
William born 1858 Scotland.
James born 1863 Scotland,
Margaret born 1864 Scotland,
Grace born 1866 Scotland.
Wilhelmia (Minnie) born 1869 Northumberland.

This is just a brief recap of the 'facts' so far for all those trying to keep up with Paul and Rachel. For more details you'll have to read the thread or view Pauls' website.

What will today bring! :-)
M

I have been following this thread for the past few days and on having looked at the 'tribute' website created for young Patricia, tears were brought to my eyes, I couldnt help but think of my own precious 8 year old daughter. It is so heartwarming to know that even though this little girls life was short - she has touched so many of us and her name and story shall remain in our hearts always. Thank you Paul.