General Chat

Enoch Powells - Rivers of Blood.

Seems he predicted the knife and gun crimes?

I rest my case.

Mo

If our economy of freedom fails to distribute wealth as ably as it has created it, the road to dictatorship will be open to anyone who can persuasively promise security to all.

N*..need for further discussion....

I find the psychology of the great leaders - dictators or otherwise - extremely interesting.

Seeing how Hitler mesmerised hundreds of thousands of people at Nuremberg, how his charisma made a huge section of Germany idolise him, is remarkable.

I cannot think of another leader in wartime Britain who could have rallied morale to the extent that Churchill did. his speeches still make my hair (what's left of it) stand on end, lol.

All great leaders have been excellent and often mesmeric orators. Someone who talks a load of rubbish, but does it well, will triumph over someone who talks sense badly.

Sorry Eldrick, just my opinion, and we are all entitled to that, because we both know the way these threads could go. Yes I do agree with all you have said re the rest about Enoch Powell. I think the history and background to this speech, from both sides should be learned before an opinion is made.
Julia in Derbyshire

Spoken words mislead as often as they guide.

I can't see why anyone would want ot call Enoch a racist. He wasn't. His rivers of blood speech has been taken totally out of context and the other matters he stood up for ignored. He was demonised by the press.

For instance, the speech he claimed was his best ever was in relation to the treatment of Kenyan Mau Mau prisoners and highly critical of what he considered to be the inhumane way that the British treated African people.

Powell was articulate, highly intelligent and highly popular with the man in the street. When he was sacked from his cabinet position, there were protest marches held in his favour, if I remember correctly.

He stood up for his principles - one of which was his opposition to the EEC as it was then and his antagonism with Heath who took us into it. He would be feted now for that stance.

Like Churchill, he wasn't frightened to side with opposition bills and policies if he thought they were sensible.

I can't, for the life of me, see why any discussion about Enoch Powell should be controversial.

How about 'dictaphones'? They were great for dictating!

Why do you think he was misunderstood. As you admit to being a' mere' forty year old, as someone much older, I think you are picking out the bits that suit what you want to believe. Do you know why he made that speach, for instance. Do you know who it was directed at. I don't think you fully comprehend that this is what is know called 'racism'.
I have invited you to pm me, but I will not put anything I know on this thread. It is too controversial, and wonder how many times I have to say this to you before you fully comprehend the enormity of what you are saying.
Julia in Derbyshire

you saying Im horrible?lol

Ermmmm..Im not familiar with Latin..BPC..lol...but I can guess a few words!

~~~I looked up..google..youtube(eye opener!)...to see how Britain was 40 yrs ago!..Its intriguing...(Enoch was in prime of yr `68..yr I was born)...I think he was..misunderstood to be honest...
He did say things though..that have happened..

The Title of Enoch Powells speech arose from its allusion to Virgils line from the epic poem "Aenedid 6,88 in which the "Sybil" prophesies" wars, terrible wars and the Tiber foaming with much blood" , hope that clears that matter up :-)))) , all info found on a site relating to the speech .

Twizzle

As forementioned...I did correct myself in relationship to `dictatorship` .in those instances...We have the Hitlers,Stalins.Musssolini.even maybe Mai Tse Chung?..Lenin?..
A common denominator in dictatorship..is this..human sacrifice...at whatever cost..

...

Lily, I have just had a look on answers.com and there,s some good info on there about Enoch. If you "yahoo" his name, it will take you to the site.
As everyone else has intimated, this subject matter could be misconstrued as "non PC" which is something of a mixed metaphor.lol. I hope you find the answers you are looking for and can form your own conclusions. x

Very very true, Julia. Too often we hear people applying today's values and opinions to a speech made over 40 years ago when things were very different.

Yes Lilly - I agree this is not a racist thread, and I am not suggesting that for one minute. But you need to learn more about Enoch Powell, then you will see how it "Could" turn into a racist thread. Whilst I agree that what he said was how he saw things, and how it could manifest, in today's world, that can be seen as controvertial and racist. This speach was made many years ago, and would not be considered PC today
Julia in Derbyshire

As far as Enoch Powell is concerned, well, we shall never know.

Hmmm a bit of a contradiction in terms.
A dictator is an "authoritarian ruler (e.g. absolutist or autocratic) who assumes sole power over his or her state" according to Wikipedia.
Surely some of the most famous (not great) dictators would include Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin etc. Some dictators, such as Hitler, actually did SOME good for their state as well as the absolute atrocities that took place.
I think it would be wrong to discuss dictators but stipulate that only certain ones can be mentioned - that is how history is, and has been, covered up.

~~This is no way a racist thread...far from it...I like to explore different avenues to reach a conclusion..I just find politics of this nature..so..ambigous..I can only go by what I have seen on youtube..and to be honest..What Enoch said..was just how he saw things...how things could manifest...
Dictators...?...that is a different thread altogether!~~