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Do you think a baby that has died before birth sho

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legs of liverpool

legs of liverpool Report 6 Jul 2008 22:03

i lost twins 31 years ago at only 12 weeks never had any help i lost one at home and one a week later in hospital will never forget that time but i have six grown up children now life can be so hard but then it make up in three fold bernie


Sarah Report 6 Jul 2008 12:29

sorry to hear of all your losses innisfree i am pleased you got a birth cert for your lost baby that must of gave you some peace of mind known that people of the future will know about her not that it ever becomes easy to come to terms with your lost becuse that never happens


Thistledown Report 4 Jul 2008 20:59

Hi Sarah,
i too lost a baby at 34 weeks a little girl in 1976 i did not see her or touch her but my mother got her buried with her mother something that i am very very grateful for i do not have a death cert for her as the Irish gorv. did not allow you to register babies if they did not live for 48 hours but now i can get a birth cert for her. I always put her name on the censes form and put stillborn in brackets i know that i should not but she was a baby to me.
Hope that you are keeping well and remember that you have a little Angel looking over you.


DIPPY D Report 3 Jul 2008 23:11

hi sarah

i had a miscarriage at 22 weeks we could not have a funeral becouse they said becouse she was born before 24 week... they gave us two blurred photo,s no councelling or anything . we were told a priest from the hospital would let us know were she was buried they said she would be in the hospital grounds but he would get in touch and show us were exactly she was.... we never heard a thing it wasnt untill i went to a funeral director to see about having a stone slab with her name on put in my brothers grave which we will be forever gratefull to my parents for letting us do it ... we found out she wasnt in the hopital grounds at all but in a cemetry were we could have been laying flowers for all those years we thort she was in a different place and she wasnt... we did have the stone slab done and she is with him we know this for sure but i,m not going to go into that.

she would have been 21 last week that was hard becouse 21 is one of the big birthdays we celebrate and all we could do was lay flowers but like we said she will never be forgotten and our two children know were her name is and they can go and visit there grave any time they want.... i know she,s not buried there but it doent matter were she,s buried she,s with family who love her and will look after her till its our turn to be with her...

gob bless to you and all who has lost a little one

becouse god decided he needed some more little angels up in heaven and he chose ours

gone but not forgotten xxxxxxxx


Patricia Report 3 Jul 2008 12:02

My condolences on your loss. I feel for you - and I too have experienced the pain of miscarriage. I lost 6 pregnancies - all before 14 weeks. As a nurse, I am fully aware of what a foetus looks like at that stage of pregnancy, and it would be a rare occasion that medical staff would be able to do things like take foot prints. My first, I named, but the others, I chose not to. What I did do, was to plant a tree for each of my babies who did not survive. My feeling is that there is no need for a public declaration - or indeed proof that there was a baby, but, of course everyone is different. I did however, manage to have 2 beautiful children, and when my eldest was 3 and I had lost yet another baby - I brought a book showing the development of babies - it showed the actual size. I could explain to my son that because the baby was born when it was WAY too small, that it could not live no matter how much we wanted it to live. We talked about this child, he gave it a "nick"name and we planted the tree. My son is now 24, and still talks of the baby on occasions, as he also talks of his twin who did not survive. Yes, it is sad, but I can assure you, the pain does ease with time, and I am sure that you will find a way of commemorating your precious child that is relevant and meaningful to you and your family. The greatest memories of those we love are very often carried in our hearts.
These threads are for sharing of thoughts and ideas - even if we do not necessarily agree with others thoughts or comments. I feel that, even if their comments are hurtful, it is better to simply acknowledge that, but not to put them down for their beliefs.

Purple **^*Sparkly*^** Diamond

Purple **^*Sparkly*^** Diamond Report 3 Jul 2008 01:17

I just had a closer look at the SANDS site. They do a little booklet called a Memory booklet, which is for health visitors etc to give to bereaved parents so they feel they have something to recognise their baby's existence, for however short a time. Maybe we should tell all Maternity units about this and hope they would use them or produce something suitable for use if parents want a certificate.
There are some lovely things you can buy very cheaply, I liked the little brooch/pin and may well get one myself, to commemorae my Zoe, altho of couse, after more than 34 years she will never be out of my heart and mind.

Sue in Somerset

Sue in Somerset Report 2 Jul 2008 12:03

Oh this is a difficult question.

I don't think society can go as far as issuing formal certificates because of all the legal problems involved but grieving parents should be given the chance to mark the fact that their child existed.

Someone I care about made the decision to have an abortion at about 16 weeks. It was the right decision for her but the thought of what might have been is always there. Life is rarely straightforward and choices are often very hard to make.

Oh so sad.



Sarah Report 2 Jul 2008 08:36

hi small blonde angel i am sorry to hear of your mothers loss things havent changed that much today to what happened in the past all losses i feel arent dealt with in the manner they should be to most of the mothers that have lost a baby one way or the other they feel let down by either the system or hospital its just a sad fact that needs a extreme look over and mothers that have lost their child/ren should let their points know so things can be made a little easier not saying its ever easy but at least you wouldnt feel let down by the system or hospitals

Small blonde Angel

Small blonde Angel Report 2 Jul 2008 00:10

Sarah, this is a sad thread and I know how you feel as I have had miscarriages too. However I have added to this post to say that the way that still births were treated in the past was awful. My Mum had my little sister Carol in 1961 17th February to be precise, she was born sleeping and had to be buried in unconsecrated ground. My Mum still grieves after all this time.


Muffyxx Report 1 Jul 2008 23:46

Nite Sarah. Nite CMD. Take care xx


Sarah Report 1 Jul 2008 23:40

once again my deepest sympthy goes to anyone that has lost a child know matter how young or old the child/ren where turning off my pc for tonight good nite everyone


Sarah Report 1 Jul 2008 23:30

thanks **coal miners daughter** at last someone that gets my point across!!

Kempinastrawhat i am very sorry to hear of your loss i have done own certificate but cant help but feel for everyone that has lost a baby as the people of the future may never know about your loss so it turn the babies we are grieving for will become the forgotten children!!


JaneyCanuck Report 1 Jul 2008 23:30

cmd -- I didn't want to suggest that directly, because I wasn't sure whether it would help or hurt. I also didn't want to get overly graphic, but I think you get the idea. You know best whether it's wise to mention it. In most cases, I tend to think knowledge is better than not as a general rule, but I would never presume what might be best for anyone I don't know in such sad circumstances. A delicate explanation might at least help her understand that the doctor, for example, really did have her best interests at heart, even if he sounded a bit brutal.


JaneyCanuck Report 1 Jul 2008 23:27

Sarah, I'm sorry that you have chosen not to let go of this bone.

"so at what age does a human become a human"

I didn't say "a human". I said "a human being", a term that has a meaning. A human being is born, human and alive. After death, a human being is a cadaver. Before birth, a human being is a fetus.

That's the nature of life and time -- things change and become other things. Is an acorn an oak tree?

"if you carry a child and want it its human before 24 weeks to them and the family maybe not to society"

Families don't decide these things. Society does. If your dotty great aunt said that her cat was human to her, would you agree that a death certificate should be issue? I think you'd be insulted.

(Editing: excuse me, you managed to trip me up. I have not said that a fetus is not human. Of course it's human. So is my kidney. If your dotty aunt said her cat was *a human being * to her ...)

"still doesnt mean it doesnt exist does it"

No one said that *the fetus* did not exist. It existed. And the woman's and her family's hopes and dreams existed. And women and their families are entitled to grieve their own losses however they see fit.

"my point been why cant there be a record for the people that want it for the family of the future!!"

My point is that what someone may or not want does not determine what a society does.

You are entirely free to create your own record, in the form of a memorial object or written document. You simply are not entitled to demand that a record of something that was *not* the death of a human being be entered in the public records of the deaths of human beings.

Once again: there are very certainly many women who do NOT want public records kept of their private medical events -- that being exactly how they view their own miscarriage.

Your loss is a private event. You really need to stop telling the rest of the world how it must treat it.


Maria Report 1 Jul 2008 23:23

I agree with Kemp & cmd - re either a new "official" cerificate to use in these circumstances, or the family creating their own. It's in the heart and soul of the family that the loss is centred and it would be no less important for being issued by that loving family.

Night all and God Bless

Maria x x


Maria Report 1 Jul 2008 23:20

cmd - what you mum & dad went through and how they were handled by the doctor is appaling.

Thank God that doesn't happen now, but I fully understand how your mum will suffer emotionally all her days.

Maria x x


KempinaPartyhat Report 1 Jul 2008 23:16

Sorry cant read all the posts to ......upsetting

I to lost 3 babies and yes they are people in their own right ......

Why dont you make your own certificates ......I hope this dont upset people here but .....its lovely to have some thing .....

My friend has her daughters feet and hands printed and framed ...its beautiful....


Sarah Report 1 Jul 2008 23:12

also kathryn you say A miscarriage is the loss of a potential person. There are many things that *might have been* that cause us great pain, and the loss of a "might have been" child is often one of them. It is not, however, the death of a human being -- a born person who was a member of the *human* family and our society.
so at what age does a human become a human then because if you carry a child and want it its human before 24 weeks to them and the family maybe not to society but still doesnt mean it doesnt exist does it my point been why cant there be a record for the people that want it for the family of the future!!


Maria Report 1 Jul 2008 23:11

Sarah I don't disagree with you that the growing baby inside you is a person and is a part of your family from the earlierst day.

I knew (by accident, having a scan for a reason totally unconnected to my pregnancy) that my twins were there only 2 weeks after conception - and even then I felt love for them and dreamed of what their and our future would hold.

I don't think that anyone is arguing with how you feel or how valuable the new emerging life is, especially to the family.


JaneyCanuck Report 1 Jul 2008 23:09

cmd -- your mother's story is horribly sad. While "officially" recognizing a woman's/family's loss is not appropriate, privately pretending nothing happened is also very unfair.

Unfortunately, in the days before abortion was legal, what happened to your mum was actually not uncommon. Doctors were afraid to perform "abortions" on women whose fetuses had died, lest they be reported and investigated. And the even sadder thing is that some women died from infection if the fetus was not expelled in time; remember, it was then dead tissue. Sadly, after two weeks, your mum's doctor was probably right, that she would not have wanted to see the fetus.