General Chat

I agree with what you are saying regarding the Certs Kathryn. Thinking it through logically it's not a good idea.

However, having suffered from multiple miscarriages I'd just like to point out that I'd LOVE to know now years on..... what.....if anything........caused them as all tests were inconclusive. WHY is a question a lot of women ask themselves after a miscarriage. I remember wondering after the first one if it was because I drank too much orange juice FGS. My mind was all over the place.

I don't agree with Sarahs views on abortion either however I believe she's entitled to her opinion as are you xx

if you look back again KathrynB you will see i said a woman should be given the choice to register a death or misscarriage if they wish to this means its not law but is there if they feel this would help

hi **coal miners daughter** at the moment you do not get anything to confirm the death of your baby unless you where pregnant for 24 weeks then its classed as a still birth and have to register the death but with todays tests etc surely this should give the mother and the family to register the death of their child before this if this is what they want?

Kaz, the point you made about abortion laws is the one I was initially trying to make by explaining it.

If death certificates were issued for miscarried fetuses, what then? Death certificates are only issued when human beings die.

Not only would abortion be, by definition, a homicide -- the intentional killing of a human being -- but all deaths of fetuses would require death certificates.

What of women and their families who don't *want* their miscarriages to be "officially" called deaths? Either the miscarriage of a fetus is the death of a human being or it isn't, for "official" purposes.

What of cause of death? What woman wants her miscarriage investigated to see whether she caused it?

A miscarriage is the loss of a potential person. There are many things that *might have been* that cause us great pain, and the loss of a "might have been" child is often one of them. It is not, however, the death of a human being -- a born person who was a member of the *human* family and our society.

So that was my attempt to be gentle in explaining why death certificates are not appropriate or even possible in the case of miscarriage.

Sarah chose to fling insults at women who terminate pregnancies in general, and then to make insulting insinuations about me in particular. Sad.

Okay hears my view not based on anything, no experience etc.

There has to be a cut off point.

This has to be a decision made by the two people involved.

There has to be plenty of facts, not statistics, the facts have to be medical not ethical the ethics are left for the two people concerned.

broggy everyone has diferent opinions and if you wanted a baby you would know or would have been tested to see all am trying to say is a woman who has lost a child should be given the option of registering the death no matter how old or young the child was because at the end of the day its a child even it it never seen the light of day of took its first breath!!

night kaz and ya right about life been to short too

To be honest Sarah no I don't think it's selfish.

I feel for you and indeed for anyone who has last a child. I have been incredibly lucky to have had 2 pregnancies which produced 3 healthy babies.

I don't make light of your loss or anyone else's.

I think that if you have lost a baby it is right and healthy that you remeber it/him/her and that your family remembers the lost one. The earlier suggestions about a family ceremony, or a plaque were just what I would have wanted were I ever in that position.

But I don't think that a change to the law would be passed and in a way it doesn't really change anything. If you lost a baby at 7 or 8 or 10 weeks you might not even know it ever existed. And most of society definitely wouldn't know, and perhaps it therefore wouldn't be appropriate for "society" to produce a death certificate, which is what the original question was about.

That of course doesn't mean that that life is any less precious, or any less missed by the family who mourn.

right sarah, kathryn,...
read these posts, both of you have misunderstood each others opinions, my post is in middle, going on about changing the abortion time...........
please make up......... life is too short :),
nite xx


Sarah, you loss is a very painful one - the loss of a future you hoped to have, that now will not happen.

But the loss is yours and your family's, and not a loss of a member of our society, our human community, because the person you are grieving is a person who never was. That is the very sad thing for your family, that there was someone who could have been and now will not be.

In fact, it is thought that about half of all fertilized eggs -- *potential* people -- do not develop into full-term pregnancies and births. Most, women (perhaps luckily) never know about the loss, it is so early. Some are lost after women and their families have already begun to plan and dream for their futures with a new family member.

It would be perfectly appropriate for you and your family, and friends if you choose, to hold a ceremony of whatever kind would help you in your loss.

But to answer your question about changing laws: no "official" recognition of that loss as a death of a person would be appropriate. That would put government in a position of monitoring women's bodies, so that if we had a late period, an investigation would have to be held to decide whether a death certificate should be issued ... or if we had a late-term miscarriage, an investigation would have to be held to decide whether we had "killed" our fetus. That's not something most of us would want to happen.

I was conceived during the term of my mother's first pregnancy, which ended in miscarriage. If that pregnancy had been successful, a healthy baby might have been born and lived to today ... but I would not have been born. I know that if my mother were given the chance to change history, she could never decide -- avoid the pain of that loss and have the child she never had, or not have me? Sometimes nature just makes those decisions for us, and our lives turn out as they do.

As you know from what other women say, miscarriage is an unfortunately common experience. It is truly important that your family and friends recognize the painful loss you have had. I'm not being one of those people who says "it's all for the best, dear", because of course it isn't, it's horrible. Be sure to take the time you need to grieve, and be sure to talk to people who understand your loss and won't try to minimize it and hurry you back to "normal".

If I may offer some unsolicited advice, make sure your other children don't absorb your grief, which they are too young to really understand. And most importantly, keep communication open with your husband.

morning sarah,
sorry to hear of your loss, we lost a baby at 12 weeks, but it was a partial misscarraige.
i know how you feel, you'll always remember and the plaque sounds wonderfull
we've had 2 boys since and the one i lost, i hope was a girl... :))) xxx
as for changing the law, to do that they would have to change the abortion law aswell, as you can still have them up to 24 weeks.........:(
sarah concentrate on greiving for now and building your family.... :) xxx
you take care,
kaz. xxx

hi kazz sorry for your loss i do agree to the abortion law been changed but only people who have felt the loss of a baby would know how it feels to loss a baby many people regret having abortions after it has took place i was always brought up with the thinking that abortions where wrong after all if you fall pregnant but could of provented it from happening you should take responcability for the child and your actions i feel pregnant with my first child at 15 had her when i was sixteen i could never of had an abortion then or now! the only way i would consider an abortion is if there was a medical reason eg the baby was going to suffer or i was going to die even then i dont think i could live with the thought of killing my baby that has to be worse than having a misscarrage surely!! also why termanate a childs life because your thinking about your own needs!! surely it would be better for the child to be adopted to a family that has always wanted a child an cant! ( my sister cant have children down to having no womb but would love children i was going to carry a child for her after we had this one but now feel there is a hole in our lives and dont think i could she understands but i still cant help feeling sorry for her it breaks my heart known she cant when she is desprate to have one of her own yes there is adoption like i said but its not the same as your own if there is a away but many people dont even produce eggs so where does that leave them after all there is so many people wanting a baby as young as possible so would this not be a better way around getting away from your responcabilities rather than killing the unwanted child?thank you for the sit

there is always light at the end of the tunnel sparrow as for the pets at feeding time i know the feeling cant move in the kitchen for the cat as soon as she hears the cupboard door open no matter if its for her or not!! lol

Sarah, yes a friend of mine was told by many academic gynies that she could not have children, she has three boys. My mum did not give up she went on the have some one really special, me. Our pets think i am very special around feed time.

kathryn if you read that part again you will see i said that some people may have regeted it and others may think its the best thing they have done!!

broggy so how do you explian this?But the loss is yours and your family's, and not a loss of a member of our society, our human community, because the person you are grieving is a person who never was. That is the very sad thing for your family, that there was someone who could have been and now will not be. how selfish dont you think???

It's standard issue for the anti-choice brigade.

Anyone who disagrees with them must be attacked and their character shredded.

Or it must be pretended, in the case of a woman, that she had an abortion which she chose out of her own selfishness, and she now lives with the huge and inconsolable regret she feels -- and her anger at those who seek to control other women is just a bad psychological reaction to her own guilt and shame.

No decent person makes such comments to or about a person about whom she knows nothing.

hi sparrow thank you for your thread i am sorry to hear about your mothers loss this happened to a close friend of mine four times she was then told she couldnt have anymore but she went on to have 3 lovely healthly boys and one girl so goes to show you shouldnt give up hope

I have to say I read this thread earlier and didn't assume anything about Kathryn B. I don't feel that anything Kathryn said on here was nasty or personal or bitter, or hinted at any previous decisions or regrets.

like i said kathryn i asked for points of views not to be set on like a savage dog

I gave you my opinion, Sarah.

My opinion is that your opinions about women who make choices different from your own do not belong in this thread, or anywhere at GR.

I shall now report your post as well. It is unfortunate that you did not choose to take the sensible and polite approach to the situation by keeping your own comments in your thread to the subject of the thread, or accept my proposal that your comments and my response be voluntarily deleted.

Sparrow, if your comment:

'But really some thread providers "there is a time and place for your points of view".'

was directed at Sarah, I agree. There is a time and a place for people to say vile things about the decisions made by women who are strangers to them, and this time and this place are not it.

Dear Sarah, I havent actually lost anything close to me yet apart from a cat. But I a glad to see the support that you have recieved in threads.

My mum had a pregnancy before i was born in the 60's she found out on the friday that the baby was dead and had to carry all weekend to abort on the monday. She was not allowed any head stone when they buried the child.

But really some thread providers "there is a time and place for your points of view".

And Brain dont get me wrong i have done the same as you have got on with life because i have had no other choice but to but it still doesnt stop you wondering does it and thinking about your loss maybe you keep it to yourself bottle it up as a lot of people do but does it really help in the long run? The loss doesnt just disappear does it? and if it did surely something must be wrong as its just human nature to feel a huge hole in your life when you lose someone or something close to you!!