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ATOS (one day this could be you)

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

JustJohn

JustJohn Report 27 Sep 2012 22:49

Leanne is :-D :-D

I am not a republican, but I defend her right to be one. She is one of the few politicians I have seen who doesn't say things to please. Long may she reign :-D ;-)

Back to thread, think

Gins

Gins Report 27 Sep 2012 22:56

John...you have not answered the question?


I find you to be an 'antagonist'


JustJohn

JustJohn Report 27 Sep 2012 23:03

Eeyore First, I want to emphasise that I am very sympathetic to anyone who is needy. I do not think you will find any remark I have ever made that contradicts that. I am genuinely a very caring person, and try to do my best to help anyone who I can.

I have thought long and hard why ATOS and DWP do not take the word of specialists and doctors. That seems so obvious to me. Doctors know that a man's leg is missing and whether he can still do most things that a man can do with two legs. Or whether he is incapacitated and can only do certain jobs. Or no jobs at all.

Is it because it has been so easy to get a sick note, a statement of incapacity? I ask that in all humility, and I don't really know the answer. But companies all have to make sick visits now to employees who are getting sick pay, they have to introduce extra bonus sometimes to reward people for not taking time off sick.

If doctors and specialists were neutral and not siding with their patient, I wonder if ATOS "judgments" would even be required in all but the most contentious cases.

Rambling Rose

Rambling Rose Report 27 Sep 2012 23:04

I don't know much about Leanne Wood, though a little about Plaid Cymru having lived in the PC heartland lol but this is an interesting little quote John ;-)

"Conceding nothing to the right-wing propaganda which has conned many people into supporting measures which will ensure that the worst off in society pay the price for the 2008 crisis, Plaid Cymru should continue to oppose the British state’s austerity programme, designed by a group of self-serving millionaires, which is conducting an unprecedented attack on benefits, while providing no hope of jobs. "

Gins

Gins Report 27 Sep 2012 23:08

Well.........I guess, you can educate an idiot, but he will always be an 'idiot'

JustJohn

JustJohn Report 27 Sep 2012 23:10

Rose Not really sitting on fence in 2008, were they? Leanne has taken them further to the left than that even, so it will be interesting to see how ordinary people will respond.

If she said "the moon is made of blue cheese" I would still support her.

Despite it being a Labour Government and quite a few Libs and PC in Wales, we are having exactly the same problems in this area of welfare reform ie those really in need getting dragged under whilst everyone is assessed.

Gins

Gins Report 27 Sep 2012 23:12

At least you get free 'scripts'


.........or maybe, you pay for yours John!

SueMaid

SueMaid Report 27 Sep 2012 23:12

Statistics are a wonderful thing but they can and often are manipulated to show the current government in a good light. Just look at the unemployment figures - historically false.

John - I'm really trying to make up my mind as to whether you just blunder in with your half-baked and somewhat bigotted ideas or whether you are deliberately stirring the pot.

Rambling Rose

Rambling Rose Report 27 Sep 2012 23:15

"If doctors and specialists were neutral and not siding with their patient,"

Beggars belief... I am obviously on another planet, as are the people I know who have illnesses, they will be thrilled to know that it is only the Dr or specialist ( yes SPECIALIST!!!!) who is "siding" with them and not that they REALLY have Parkinsons, or cancer or leukaemia or are crippled by arthritis etc.

I give in.

JustJohn

JustJohn Report 27 Sep 2012 23:22

Accidentally stirring pot, Sue. Not trying to, just stating my feelings. Not quite sure which of my thoughts are half baked. Suppose you may be referring to pensions and credits as being charity. But that was the way I was raised.

But I have never looked up to or down on anybody. Whether they are doing very well or very badly. And I try to see both sides of an argument. So think bigot is a bit unfair :-) ;-)

Eeyore13

Eeyore13 Report 27 Sep 2012 23:25

"If doctors and specialists were neutral and not siding with their patient,"
Yea Gods what exactly are you inferring?????
I go to my GP & ask for a referral to a Specialist I can some how coerce into giving me an incurable illness?????????? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

& as for NEEDY that is a downright insult, all that people want is a right to a quality of life, not to have to prove that their health is genuinely trashed & to what degree. Added to that where exactly are all the jobs going to come from? Who will employ someone who has to take time off every week for appointments & tests?

You really are clueless & you do need to read up on a subject before attempting to discuss it because you just appear ignorant & that is a shame.

Gins

Gins Report 27 Sep 2012 23:26

Not quite sure which of my thoughts are half baked.



All of them!


See you all tomorrow......snores orf to bed ;-)

SueMaid

SueMaid Report 27 Sep 2012 23:28

I didn't mean you Gins :-0

JustJohn

JustJohn Report 27 Sep 2012 23:39

Rose Please don't give up.

Companies do not trust doctors and specialists notes. I had a bang on the head a couple of years ago (yes, seriously) and had to have scans. The specialist then declared, in front of my boss, that I was fit to work after a couple of days rest. I totally agreed with that. A bit groggy as I had been concussed, but felt ok and wanted to return.

Boss then referred me to Occupational Health who then phoned me every day, insisted I took a mini mental test (what day is it? what is 7+5). I really had to keep my temper, as I explained that a top consultant at hospital had said I was 100%.

And every time we are off sick now, the boss has to come to our house and assess us. They do not believe the doctor. And many companies do this now.

That is all I was saying. Doctor's and specialist's opinions are not sacrasanct as they were years ago. Perhaps that is why ATOS appear to be ignoring a lot of medical advice - that was the point I was trying to make.

JustJohn

JustJohn Report 27 Sep 2012 23:59

Eeyore Is "needy" politically incorrect??????!!!!!!

I am pretty ignorant of the financial and medical needs of people who are unlikely to ever pursue paid employment again. But they/you are obviously needy and your rights and needs are being trodden on currently.

But I have never strayed into that area. I would look at the medical evidence, and would only review those for whom there was a chance of getting them back into employment. I think it is terrible that vulnerable people are being dragged into the process.

I am confident that my views are pretty sound otherwise, and based on some experience at least. Have conceded that my views on pensions and credits being "charity" may well be very outdated, but it is just my personal opinion and not any opinion I want to try to foist on anybody else. And I will happily take my state pension next year, unlike my batty great aunt.:-) The pension will be over £200 a week, and I expect to draw it for at least 20 years. And I doubt I have ever paid in enough to fund that sort of state pension, which seems a little too generous to me.

Rambling Rose

Rambling Rose Report 27 Sep 2012 23:59

What private companies do or do not believe is not relevant to this though John, we are talking about what the DWP believe and if a government run and funded ( with tax payer's money) department does not have faith in the medical profession's opinions then it should say so outright . If that IS the case then it is down to them to correct the failings and pronto...not make ill people suffer in the mean time.

If I go to a doctor I expect him/her to know what they are doing when it comes to a diagnosis, or refer me to a specialist who does, and to decide, based on that, whether I am fit for work, either in short or long term...I don't expect someone, of lesser qualification and experience filling ticks or crosses on a form, to dismiss that diagnosis...not without damn good reason, and it seems that this is exactly what ATOS is doing, in many cases.

now I do give up because I am off to bed!


Eeyore13

Eeyore13 Report 28 Sep 2012 00:01

Your Boss is medically qualified? Do you not think he's just checking you're not pulling a "sickie"?

Well I'm tired on many levels but I will look in tomorrow to see what you manage to come up with...I do enjoy a bit of fiction. Good Night

JustJohn

JustJohn Report 28 Sep 2012 00:23

Eeyore You seem to be arguing both ways at same time - unless it is late and I am losing it.

If the doctor gives you a sick note to say thay you are unable to work, I understood that you considered the doctor was right and should not be challenged.

You say I may be throwing a sickie and that is why the boss is visiting me at home. But I can only throw a sickie if I can persuade a doctor to sign me off work.

Fortunately, I have not had to have a paid day off sick in last 14 years at least. I did have 18 months out with a serious illness in 2002-03, but received not a peny piece during that 18 months from state benefits or anywhere and I did ask for help. I had to whittle down my savings to survive. I was self employed for 6 years, and you simply cannot afford to take sick then unless it is something incredibly serious.

Several of my work colleagues do take sick quite often - and they seem to have no problem getting doctors papers if required. Just remembered that was a best selling hit for Max Boyce - We All Had Doctors' Papers is a live album by Welsh comedian and singer Max Boyce, first issued in 1975. :-)

TheBlackKnight

TheBlackKnight Report 28 Sep 2012 00:41

John you seem to be making this thread all about you, you & you. This thread is about what the DWP & ATOS are doing to the sick & disabled of this country today. Not what you did or did not do or receive 20 to 50 years ago. Please do your homework about this subject before adding more antagonistic comments. I only say this as it seems to me you have no idea as to what the thread is about.

JustJohn

JustJohn Report 28 Sep 2012 01:01

Rose I think what companies think may well be very relevant in this debate.

No politician would purposely say anything to undermine doctors and specialists. But many of the current policy makers are very close to large companies. So private views may well reflect what businesses feel about some of the opinions of doctors.

And I would suggest that may be at the root of why we are seing these terrible human stories day after day. I don't know that, but it does seem clear that ATOS are taking little notice of medical opinion.

Hopefully been a constructive exchange, and I really was not trying to antagonise or stir. Think sometimes people think I am attacking them when I am very much on their side. And I would never claim to understand much about the needs of chronically ill people - I admit I am an ignoramus in that area. But I would like us all to give them the best quality of life and best medical care possible.