General Chat

So do I Allan, and like you am not ashamed to admit it. However I do like folk music, and church music. On the subject of belief though, having thought long and hard I am of the opinion, and it is only an opinion, not based on anything, that none of us knew anything before we were born and regretfully none of us will know anything after we are dead. I really hope that I am wrong, as there are so many people that I would dearly love to see again, but I have a feeling that I won't!
but this is only my opinion.

I love classical music too :-D. I also love much religious choral music, I love churches and cathedrals, and I think some of the language in the NT is lovely. But I'm an atheist. Does that make me weird??

Privately I may 'ridicule' belief in a deity (of any kind) but would hesitate to proclaim it, and would always divorce it from ridicule of a person. Persons with 'a faith' are as many and varied in their likes, personalities, intelligence, characters and actions as those with none.

One of the nicest people I ever worked with was a 'born again', and one of the meanest, most spiteful and hated by his staff was also a deeply religious man!! I've seen puritanical nay-sayers who purport to be 'christian' because they go to church on Sundays, but who are the quickest to judge, or to look down their noses. And there are those who quietly go about doing good without seeking recognition.

We are all capable of good deeds and bad, whatever our beliefs or lack of them.

Oh well .. when you are in church later John pray for the courage to either post the love notes you claim to have from me or admit they do not exist .

Mine are 3pm and 6pm today. We also have a prayer meeting early Sunday morning.

And I am in church service this week on Tuesday afternoon and Wednesday morning we have a prayer and share meeting. And church meeting for business Monday night (yawn).

Church is not just for Sunday, is it. If you are committed, it is almost every day. Like my Catholic aunt who goes to Mass most mornings early and then spends an hour each morning saying her prayers. And the two businessmen in New York who started praying together in their lunch hour in 1930's and within 2 years there were 20,000 executives doing the same thing.

Not necessarily - my local CofE church had a service at 0815 and 1000. Other denominations or parishes could have other timings, and more services :-)

Well I find it strange that the believers are not in church today .. or is the draw of spouting on the comp stronger .?

Lily I very seldom listen to music and always do very badly when that subject comes up in a quiz.

But some music really lifts me or means something. Sometimes it is classical (Pastoral and Debussy's L'Apres Midi come to mind). Sometimes it is hymns (Bread of Heaven and Amazing Grace and many others). And sometimes pop. Was teenager in 1959-1965, so Bobby Vee and Del Shannon mean a lot, Then Motown (Percy Sledge was my favourite). And Adam Faith (faith no refernce to this thread), Cliff, Marty, Elton John, Queen, Michael Jackson.

Love all of that. And would really love to listen to more classical. :-) :-)

LilyL,

I totally agree, I would never question a person's beliefs, anymore than I would try to change them.

At the end of the day who is right?

And, without being 'smart', I do enjoy classical music, and I'm not afraid to admit it

JC and Allan

Labels can be very misleading. We are all individuals and no two of us are the same.

A couple of labels in the Christian sphere that irritate me a little are "fundamental" and "reformed" Fundamental assumes that you literally believe the Bible word for word - and so I don't think I have ever met one. And reformed is used for anyone who agrees with the 5 points of Calvinism. Yet most Arminian-leaning Christians would agree with at least 3 points that Calvin made - only disagreeing on particular redemption and perhaps the perseverance of the saints.

For example, I believe that all can be saved (universal atonement) but I can quite happily slip into a Calvinist "reformed" church or chapel and very few people can tell where I stand on the atonement. I do feel and even sound pretty reformed and have no problems with words like remnant or elect or Sovereign Grace.

Vicars in the C of E now have a wide range of parishes - and have to adapt to low and high church as well as varying doctrines preferred in each of their churches. Almost a congregational approach in some rural parishes with the PCC and lay readers playing a key rule in developing and maintaining their individual church.

I much admire Vicars and Bishops for their learning, their application and their versatility - both men and women clerks.

Allan and John, I certainly wasn't referring to either of you, I was just pointing out that admitting to being a practising christian tends to have the same effect on 'people' as does the admission of liking classical music, that it is somehow wierd, out of touch, and something to be ridiculed, to the extent that you find yourself almost apologising for being so peculiar! I don't profess to be learned either in scientific matters or matters of theology, but I do know that people should be able to express their views and opinions without attracting insulting comments both about themselves or the organisation they are debating.

Jiminy,

You could very well be right :-)

I actually hadn't put a name to it, but I wouldn't disagree :-D

KenSE, I didn't say that scientists believe that they are omnipotent, only that there is a danger they some could become so.

John, from my childhood days of comic books, I seem to remember that cannibals traditionally boiled their victims, so no crispy fried missionary

Ken I certainly get the impression that some scientists are so certain of their "facts" that they are dismissive of the possiblity of any all-powerful deity holding sway.

Descartes wrote about the Omnipotent Deceiver and that led his follower Pascal to this conclusion:
"He said that we humans can never know all about God, but that there are three possibilities: plus, minus, and zero.
The minus god would be something like an evil Omnipotent Deceiver, and we would gain nothing from believing in such a force, since we would be going to Hell anyway.
The neutral or zero god would be like a force of nature, providing no afterlife; so there would be no advantage in casting our faith in something that will not give us an afterlife.
The third possibility is a positive god such as that portrayed in the Bible. Pascal said it was only with the third possibility that we could win eternal life, so it is proper to wager our faith on this possibility, even while we have no knowledge of its probability."

Allan,
you "seem" to hold the same views as myself, Naturalistic Pantheism.
Perhaps a discussion on the merits or not of this way of thinking may give some people who (appear to enjoy ridiculing others) a better run for their money in the "I am right stakes".

I am not saying you are a Pantheist Allan, but you do come across as having very similar outlooks on life.

I am a Pantheist just in case anyone wants to know. (No, its not Atheism by another name)

Edit:
John,
sorry I deviated from the topic ,"Women Bishops" afraid the only view I have on that is why not?
It seems to be an "in-house" problem so let them sort it out, I believe what outsiders think is pretty irrelevant to them anyhow.

Allan. Is that the old one about the missionary preaching against the sins of adultery and theft (using theft of their bicycle as an example) and then realising where on the island they left their bike. :-S :-S

For you information it requires a boiling temperature of 200C for 24 hours to cook a missionary to a crisp.

:-0 :-0 :-0 Lord, forgive me, for I have singed. :-(

Where does this idea of scientist believing they are omnipotent come from? I can think of no such examples and i think the complete reverse is true.

As for a god not inventing the atom bomb, you only have to look at a clear sky day or night to see hydrogen bombs so massive they take billions of years to finish exploding.

Lol Ph and John.

I hope that they weren't on bikes...meals on wheels springs to mind :-D

PH :-D :-D :-D

Particularly as I am large and quite furry

Allan and LilyL :-D One of my great pleasures is walking the beautiful hills and valleys round here and listening to Beethoven's Pastoral on my music thingie. It is for me a foretaste of heaven. :-)

John.......

Don't put ideas like that into Allan's head!!

:-D :-D

LilyL,

Despite what I have posted, I enjoy classical music :-)

I do not ridicule anyone's taste in music, nor do I ridicule anyone's taste in religion...each to his, or her, own.

If my views are wrong, then I will face the Supreme Being and be judged accordingly, and just hope that if I have been created in his image, that he has a sense of humour