General Chat

lol I remember that one. Classic :-)

Jax Your Bishop ladies must have been pathfinders :-D

Eldrick Christians have been reciting the creed (God created the world) since the Council of Nicea in 365AD. Darwin has not altered our belief if we are committed. Solid as rock. The shifting sands of this world no longer give me the same feeling of security as the Rock of Ages - cleft for me. Cleft for you perhaps one day. The greatest rebels are loved the most. He even seems to love me - and I was as actively anti church and religion as you not so many years ago.

You asked if Jesus was the Judge at the end of this world. See John 5:20-30. Jesus raises the dead and He is the final judge of each and every person individually. The Father has ordained that all mankind (dead or alive, believers or not) shall bow at the feet of Jesus.

Two things none of us can escape ultimately - death and the judgment.

Where is Cynthia? Oh dear probably asleep. Still tomorrow should be interesting :-)

Oh Dear. You are a creationist.

Sorry John, there is no debate. Its over. Ignorance can be forgiven, but not willful ignorance in the face of incontrovertable fact.

But please spare me the sermon and don't even think about telling me that some zombie is going to judge me. He isn't and that's all there is to it. If I thought there was the slightest chance, I would sign a pact with the devil himself to avoid going to North Korea in the sky. Which is a metaphorical statement 'cos he doesnt exist either :-D

How would a scientist define an uncontrovertible fact, Eldrick?

I think science is wonderful, but I think you have to handle the results with some of the same scepticism that you have for creationism. ;-)

No you dont, thats nonsense. Science constantly tries to prove itself wrong. All the time. Religion stays still and puts its hands over its ears and sings lalalalalala

It's simple. There is ample evidence for evolution and we are almost at the stage where we understand how the universe was created, never mind the earth.We know how that was created and it wasn't by a man with a beard who lives in the sky.

We have DNA, E=MC2, fossil records. You have a book. We have carbon dating, the red shift, particle physics. You have a book. We have natural selection, stratification of geological features, radio telescopes. You have a book. We have knowledge. You have a badly translated book compiled by a committee from stories handed down by ignorant and illiterate peasants in the most deprived and ill educated part of the world at that time. It's a no brainer. If you really believe that the earth is 6,000 years old and we are all the result of an incestuous liaison, then there is not really a lot left to say.

There is no debate. It's done, over and finished. Believe what you want, but dont preach to me about creation! Thats a belief that belongs behind closed doors and only let out to play under strict supervision from men in white coats. :-D

You are certain. I am certain. You probably will stay in your corner. I will stay in mine. So no debate (QED)

Nice to chat though, Eldrick. Nite :-D

lol

nite

oh boy, have I been looking forward to this or what :-D :-D

Now, now, Ann! :-D

Oh joy. ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)
John & Eldrick head to head.
Ducks & takes cover. :-0 :-0

In the clear light of day, the thread about whether the Church of England should have women bishops or not has got lost in a rather deeper difference of opinions on the meaning of life.

I think it needs a Christian scientist (not a Christian Scientist, that is very different) to argue the finer points of science as superior or subordinate to the Word of God. Not me alas, who is an old Tesco manager of many moons.

The Apostle Paul was possibly the cleverest man of his day. Exceptionally intelligent anyway. A prisoner on a foundering ship off Malta, he did a Fletcher Christian impression first and was put in temporary charge of the ship. Then landed on this island of Malta close to Africa (St Pauls Bay) and persuaded the whole population to turn to his new religion. He was 4'6" tall, had no speaking ability (according to him) and was ill with sight problems and a "thorn in the flesh" as he describes it.

Paul was brought up in Tarsus or Tarshish and educated about all the finest science of those days.

My scant knowledge of science has led me to marvel at the brainpower of scientists, but I believe their gifts and knowledge are God given. They don't always agree with each other, so difficult to know which ones are correct.

And do any of them claim that they can make my body perfect in the last day, put all the bits together, make it whole and that I can be lifted off this earth to meet with the beloved one who saved me from the "other side" and is patiently waiting to save other rebels such as me.

None of these arguments are new. They were centre stage with Darwin. And when Erasmus was around. And when Paul was around. And probably long before that. Eldrick is in a long and proud tradition that will not die. So am I :-D :-D We all have to choose eventually what is the truth.

Paul was a misogynist. Can't take anything he said with any seriousness, especially after multiple translations.

If people want to believe in Jesus that's no problem as far as I'm concerned, I can't argue with a lot of what he said and he seemed to respect women.

Paul told women to be quiet in church and keep their hair covered so as not to inflame men's desires. Says a lot about his mindset if he couldn't keep his thoughts on God when a woman with uncovered hair was nearby.

Gwynne :-) I was a member of a church where women still keep their head covered. Quite a run-of-the-mill rural church with "Independent Evangelical Church" on the door.

And many religions which are similar in many ways to Christianity (Islam, for example) have a strict dress code of course. That suggestion that men can be inflamed easily is embedded rather. It seems to be the reason that women wear a lot of covering in certain faiths and denominations.

The way i see it, its not women that need to keep their hair covered for fear of provoking desire. Small boys should be wearing tesco bags with eye slits in them.

Joking apart, all the abrahamic religions revile and subjugate women. We all know why. Control.

Now if you read your bible literally and believe the myths about paul and others, do you also believe literally the other bits that arent quite so pink and fluffy? You see, i really like the bit in HHGTTG about Slarti Bartfast, but im not so keen on the infinite improbabilty drive. But you cant really have one without the other or it spoils the book. But el biblio is different, you are allowed - nay, encouraged to ignore the nasty bits, quote bits out of context and cherry pick what you want. So its fine to stone gays but not so good to burn your first born son.

Nah, load of cods. But i will spill blood to let you have the freedom to worship whatever ghosts you want to, just please keep it out of my face and my life. I deny the holy spirit, i deny the holy spirit i deny the holy spirit. Nope, still here, nothings changed

:-D

:-D :-D :-D

No argument there, dear Eldrick. Would the Tesco bags need to be bags for life?

I think the fact that you will spill blood to defend these strange and archaic belief systems (so would I for your beliefs in your "gods") speaks volumes for why people want to live in Britain. :-D :-D We so need to defend our liberty and freedom to be whatever we want to be.

Think both of us would struggle in many countries of this world where we could not have such an open and friendly discussion about fairly polarised opinion :-D

Married lady down the street had an affair last week. What size boulders do we need ;-)

Awww - nice to know that someone missed me ;-)


It's good to have John around - it takes the heat off me for a while and he's doing just fine :-D


I was brought up within non conformity before making my own decision to become an Anglican - so I am well versed in having women as leaders. However, as much as I accept the ministry of women in the church, I retain a slight unease at times - but that is my problem.


Also, being brought up within a Christian atmosphere and going to church does not, necessarily, make one a Christian. I attended services of all kinds for many, many years before, 'the penny finally dropped' whilst I was undergoing a difficult time and life took on a whole new meaning. I'm not very good at quoting Scripture - a good memory would help - but I do know that the Jesus of history is the Jesus who never leaves my side. I may wander off from Him occasionally, but he sticks with me :-D


Now is the time for Eldrick to tell me all about my delusions and my invisible friend........lol



Just a thought. I rather like this quote by Blaise Pascal :


"If you believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you have lost nothing -- but if you don't believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you will go to hell. Therefore it is foolish to be an atheist."




(for hell, think 'separation from God' before Eldrick starts with fire and brimstone).


Carry on John :-D

Ah, pascalls wagers, beloved of Hitchens. Such an invitation for dishonesty. Can one believe in something just in order to hedge a bet? I dont think so. Life is full of these little cliches, all of them eminently disectable.

Hi Cyn, nice to see you again

:-D

People most definitely should be allowed to follow whatever mythology they want. But the price that should be paid is that they should keep it private and not intrude in any way upon anyone else. That means no bishops in the upper house, no 'lords spiritual', no interference in politics or the rights of homosexual people, no songs of praise unless its followed by the Richard Dawkins show and definitely men in frocks at my funeral :-D

Cynthia :-D :-D :-D

I suspect there are a lot more on here who either would describe themselves as "born again Christians" (John Chapter 3 verse 7) or are actively "growing in grace" (in God's love) to find that release and that inner calm and happiness that lasts for eternity.

But let us not doubt that there are a far bigger number who think science holds all the answers and love to see any mockery of any religious belief.

It is a bit of a challenge for us, but even more of a challenge for Him upstairs. But it is the greatest rebels who make the greatest Christians. Remember Malcolm Muggeridge. And, of course, the Apostle Paul himself.

And my favourite Christian was Mary Magdalene (Mary of Magdala). She had a terrible reputation and was well beyond teh pale of respectability. But who was the first person to realise why the tomb was empty after Jesus had been buried there. I hate to say this, but it has always been women who have led us feeble men to the truth. :-D :-D

Oh dear oh dear. A man using a computer decrying science.

If religion doesnt like mockery then it should keep itself to itself. Personally, every time i hear such absurdities as bible quotations, i feel a little sorry for the person who has so little control over their own lives that they need a bronze age book to tell them how to lead it.

Actually, john, we are almost the same. I just believe in one less god than you do. You are a total atheist regarding odin and jove. Etc. i am a total atheist regarding the whole damned lot of them.

And i take it that you dont accept the modern day interpretation of magdalenes character and the reasons the early church vilified her........? My, you are a traditionalist!
, :-D