General Chat

"A team of evangelical Christian explorers claim they've found the remains of Noah's ark beneath snow and volcanic debris on Turkey's Mount Ararat (map).

But some archaeologists and historians are taking the latest claim that Noah's ark has been found about as seriously as they have past ones—which is to say not very."

I don't think this claim was taken as an indisputable fact, John.

Gwynne. What hope is there in atheism? That is a genuine question, as I guess I have been an agnostic for most of my life, a Christian since 1982 but have only really believed a lot of the Bible very recently. Still find it very difficult to accept some of the Old Testament, but gradually through prayer and some study am finding new truth after new truth.

We all fall off the fence. Sometimes on teh wrong side. But there is a little wicket gate to heaven (according to Bunyan in Pilgrim's Progress) that we all can find whether we are atheists or nominal Christians.

Sue. No, I agree. I am very sceptical about these claims too. I don't think there are that many facts on any side of the religious debate.

But is this not one of the things you have said "that confirm my (agreed biased) mind that the earth is youngish"?

Thread has wandered a bit from whether the Church of England should have rejected the proposition that women can become bishops.

I hope you have enjoyed the various contributions. I have :-D :-D I enjoyed Eldrick's points but for a "knowledgable scientist" he dispapointed me a little. He seems so certain about his "facts" and his position on matters that I know are widely and aggressively debated within scientific circles. I think he would enjoy training his fire power on the many scientists who disagree with his "facts".

Islamists, Jews and Christians have huge debates and disagreements. But within all 3 religions there is a coming together. Within the Christian fold, I can disagree with a Roman Catholic and a Pentecostal. But at the end of the day, we have experienced the Holy Spirit working within us. We know the love of Jesus on a daily basis and can testify he is of the same substance as God, the Father. And God is the only Truth in a rapidly changing and confusing world.

And, yes, we all seem to believe on this thread (with minor reservations) that women should have equal opportunities and status within the Church of England. And if God helps us to select the right women, other denominations and religions will perhaps gradually be led to believe that is the right way for them to go to. I feel Jesus would have wanted the best person in place in key Christian roles, and my denomination would have appointed women as Ministers back in 1807 with great trepidation and a lot of prayer and Bible study.

And I feel that approach should still apply. End of sermon

:-D

What hope for atheism? What do you mean by that, John?

I have faith in the basic goodness of mankind. I don't need the fear of hellfire and damnation to make me care about my fellow humans.

It's those who believe in various deities who are responsible for a lot of the evil in the world today and down through the centuries. I'd prefer to have faith in humanity.

I fail to see where you think Eldrick is wrong on particular points. I'm married to a scientist and mother of a scientist and I've heard a lot of debates over the years but I've never known a credible scientist doubt evolution. I've seen Christians who claim to be scientists doubt it but they are hardly unbiased so their word is worthless.

Only a fool would still believe the world is only 6,000 years old when there is irrefutable proof that it's so much older than that. And most Christians would agree. Creationists are very much on the fringes of mainstream Christianity.

I am enjoying this debate ~~~~~~~ to Cyn :-)

Eldrick and Cynthia's point of view I have read before (a few times) :-D

John's is a revelation, no pun intended.

Just a smallish point from me. After attending church 3 times every Sunday as a child and maintaining some sort of faith until 2004 I have a view, an insignificant one, but a view nonetheless.

In the 1960s I worked for a Jewish company, when the wives of the directors were guaranteed to be absent the company chauffeur was sent off to buy a mound of bacon sandwiches for everyone.

I was acquainted with a couple in the 1970s who did not allow surgery for their child, that child subsequently died. To say they were vilified by a bunch of us who knew the facts is an understatement. To be honest we shunned them!

I worked with Jehovas Witnesses for 5 years, I was subjected to their preachings during that time and although I did point out the hypocrisy re some of their bible teachings and their actual actions these were brushed off without explanation. To be chaperoned on dates but then the chaps accessing porn on the www doesn't seem very balanced. Get rid of the chaperone, switch off the pc and just get on with it! One set of parents didn't talk to their son for 5 years because he was seeing a divorced woman. They would take great delight in pointing at pictures of 'evolution of man' and mocking it and then looking at me. I was told that my wearing of a cross was offensive but they happily chomped on hot cross buns at Easter.

The worst I heard was glee, and I mean glee, at the news of deaths of Muslims, including children, how compassionate is that?

Anyway, the above probably isn't of any significance in the general debate re religion but I just wanted to add my experiences.

In 2004 I lost 2 brothers and my sister within 12 weeks and any religious beliefs I held were stamped firmly into the ground.

Sue

I feel the same as you Sue .. cannot abide anyone that pushes religion down my throat , and as for meeting Jesus ... well...lol

I agree with Sue also.
I haven't read the entire thread yet but have to comment on someone who is embracing and relishing in religion relatively late in life.
Rose tinted glasses spring to mind!
Such a person has no clue what it is like to be brainwashed at a tender age and be unable to fully embrace 'real life' until much later in life when they are finally able to rid themselves of the hideous guilt imposed upon them.
Not so happy clappy when suffering and guilt are deemed to be the way to 'a better life'. Get real man! You haven't got a clue!

I think...therefore I am lol...no really, I think that the NT, was an attempt to put into the language and perceptions of the time, events which were 'outside' of what can be described in words, even by a master ( mistress) of them. As such they are probably (imo) 'blurred shadows' of the real events

The Old Testament is just a perception, a catching of past events which were explained to the 'best of abilities' I believe. Stories passed down, containing grains of truth and large dollops of misinformation ...like some of the stories we unravel on the family tree :-)

So I don't take it 'literally', however I do find 'truths' within it....as one finds truths within many writings, non religious as well as religious. I cherry pick because through the dross there is a glint of gold, a thought, an 'inspired' echo of what mankind 'could be'.

I think scientists, aetheists, heathens and those with a 'faith that is theirs from experience' are all looking and learning still, it is a danger I think when 'religious' STOP looking outward and onward...and only concentrate on looking upward ( and down if they believe Hell is down!) and inward.

If there is a God, it is my belief that he/she/ it gave us brains to think and explore and imagine ....and if there isn't a God we have evolved brains to think, explore and imagine. :-D

John you might find this article re the former discovery of the ark interesting,
http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/bogus.html

Im afraid, John, that anyone who thinks fossils are gods way of testing faith and who ithinks the earth is 6000 years old has forfeited all rights to indulge in a debate of this nature.

As for meeting jesus, how many people have been abducted by aliens and met with unicorns. Same thing. Sorry, but you arent worth engagaing in conversation with those beliefs. But, if it is as i suspect, a wind up then good one, i confess you got me :-D

Thank you Sylvia and Island for acknowledging my post :-D

Island has hit the proverbial nail on the head......the transferred idea of guilt and the dire consequences some of us experienced in later life.

The sins of the fathers etc., well I was damn sure when Caroline was diagnosed it was ME that had done something that ensured I would suffer through watching my daughter having her life changed for the worse.She had done nothing wrong in HER life, why wasn't it me that was punished? Surely I deserved it far more than her. Same thing when we nearly lost the youngest child.

It's not rational thinking but that line of thought is ingrained through teachings in early life and they never leave you.

Sue

Sorry folks but Religion is for the weak

It's a human condition to want an explanation for when things go wrong, Some people can't accept that when we die it is the end and need to believe that their is something better waiting for them and religion has filled that void for centuries


If i die and their is something better waiting for me then it will be an unexpected bonus

What bonus will you of faith have ?

Roy

Spot on Sue, especially last sentence but I'm happy to report now......

...I'M FREEEEEEEEEEEE :-D :-D :-D and loving it :-D

I just can't take anything bar my loved ones health and happiness seriously these days.

I've not entered this debate because quite honestly I don't think I am equipped to partake - however, I have been following it with interest and I find this quote from John so patronising and arrogant


"I enjoyed Eldrick's points but for a "knowledgable scientist" he dispapointed me a little. He seems so certain about his "facts" and his position on matters that I know are widely and aggressively debated within scientific circles. I think he would enjoy training his fire power on the many scientists who disagree with his "facts".


You speak as if you are a judge

Read in the Daily Mail Today.With all the controversy about Women Bishops,It seems that most people have forgotten that the Head of The Church of England, Is" A Woman". **M**

Henry the eighth has got a lot to answer for.
I have always disliked women doctors, lawyers, dentists etc, but have got used to them.
Still haven´t quite come to terms in my mind with women priests & I feel the same about women bishops, but I expect I will come to terms with them in time, if I live long enough.
All the theological debate leaves me bewildered.

Outnumbered as per usual...............................sigh.


No worries, I am still here and still upbeat :-D



I differ from John in that I am not a creationist and am more than happy to go along with the fact that God had a hand in evolution rather than the 6-day 6,000 year theory. Nor do I believe that the earth is flat by the way :-D


I have never particularly liked fairy stores, fables or myths. Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark and suchlike were fine when I was a child - they make great colouring pictures. However, I have since matured.


I don't appreciate the comment that faith is just for the weak though because it is basically untrue. I have known many people of faith who have had some terrible things happen in their lives and yet, have carried on believing. I am aware that others, however, have lost all faith in God when tragedy strikes.


When members on here are going through bad times, we often see requests for 'positive thoughts'. I take this as meaning that they don't like to utter the word 'prayer' because of the religious connotations. There aren't many people who, being concerned for the health and happiness of their loved ones, wouldn't be grateful for prayer when the inevitable difficult times come.


Having cared for a mother with MS, a daughter with autism and a husband with Heart Disease and Parkinson's and much else besides, I guess I am more than qualified on a personal level, to say what is weakness and what is strength.


Oh...by the way.....my mother was a former Salvation Army Officer and was struck by MS at the tender age of 32 in 1945. She and my father had been working their socks off caring for soldiers during the war. Wheelchair bound for over 30 years, she lived till she was 87 and maintained her Christian faith until the end, inspiring others on her journey. Sorry, but I don't call that weakness.



I'm surprised AofC feels that she can't take part in this discussion as I was led to believe that she was a churchgoer :-S

I have bever been Christened or Baptised into any faith. This has done me no harm, and have managed to get to this ripe old age, non the worse for it.

I agree with the posts since Sue, Supercrutch at 10.34, entirely.

I cannot abide being religiously preached to, supposedly converted for my own good, would be door-stop convertors, and hell-fire and brimstone style preachers.

Ann, I also thought John's remarks re Eldrick were patronising, arrogant and condescending.

Here endeth the lesson

Julia in Derbyshire

In my opinion,People can believe What they Like, When They Like And How they like,as long as others let them get on with it and don,t mock them, It,s their right to do so if they so wish. And they don,t pontificate to others about it.**M**.

Cynthia you may be outnumbered, but your quiet voice 'carries' none the less :-D