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Anabaptists

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GoldenGirl1

GoldenGirl1 Report 11 Mar 2013 14:29

Like yourself I like the Amish way of life, more so I think
their beliefs which never seems to faulter.
The programme I watched on the Hutterites seemed that they were
on a collision course with one another, especially the mother and
daughter, I think the daughter wanted to be free to enjoy her life as
other young people.

Emma

Sharron

Sharron Report 11 Mar 2013 14:19

We all have our bit to contribute.

If we all read a bit and put in a little it saves us all reading great lumps of heavy literature.

I like the way the Amish live and stick to methods that have served them well over a long period of time.

I find it particularly appealing that they are not wasteful people.

GoldenGirl1

GoldenGirl1 Report 11 Mar 2013 14:04

Sharron a very interesting read and good to see thread still going.

I did look up some stuff but must admit found it heavy going so
decided to learn from thread rather than confuse myself by googling.

Emma

Sharron

Sharron Report 11 Mar 2013 09:59

HEAVY.

I have just read that article. It is big enough and heavy enough to warrant a thread of it's own.

One of the big differences between groups like that and most ,if not all,Anabaptist groups is that Anabaptists don't recruit or interact very much with the outside world.

There does not seem to any type of threat to anybody from them, apart from that perceived by the outside world because their values are not the same.

Sharron

Sharron Report 11 Mar 2013 09:59

HEAVY.

I have just read that article. It is big enough and heavy enough to warrant a thread of it's own.

One of the big differences between groups like that and most ,if not all,Anabaptist groups is that Anabaptists don't recruit or interact very much with the outside world.

There does not seem to any type of threat to anybody from them, apart from that perceived by the outside world because their values are not the same.

Guinevere

Guinevere Report 11 Mar 2013 09:43

How odd that you should mention The Jesus Army today, John.

Coinicidence?

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/the-jesus-army-wants-you-1617501.html

JustJohn

JustJohn Report 11 Mar 2013 09:38

I think any communal lifestyle can be very attractive. A cousin lived on a kibbutz during her student days (about 1960) and she absolutely loved the experience.

And where I lived formerly in Northamptonshire there was a commune formed by a Baptist pastor. When we left Northants, the commune (the Jesus Army, I think) had 83 residential properties and a few businesses - mainly in Daventry/Towcester area. And a big chapel in an old cinema in Northampton. They did a lot of good work amongst the homeless and addicts, but had no ties with any other churches or chapels in that area. The pastor (remember his name was Noel) was quite elderly when we left in 2007.

And there have been many communes that have no religious base - just care for each other. Sometimes it is just a big house with some land and several families live together in harmony. Extension of "The Good Life" with Felicity Kendall and late Richard Briers.

But these Hutterites impress me - as do the other Anabaptist groupings. Just think about being in a commune. It would be nice probably, but how many of us could keep a commune going for more than a generation - let alone 500 or 600 years.

I was musing on point made by Cynthia about church leaders. I think by the nature of these Anabaptist groups, church leaders would know no more than us church followers. Probably less as this thread unfolds. I can imagine what my church leaders would know about it - but I will ask them anyway :-)

Sharron

Sharron Report 11 Mar 2013 09:06

I don't know very much about scripture but I think they believe in trans-substansiation which was very much at the root of the Reformation and much religious persecution.

Maybe those of you with better knowledge than I can expand my own knowledge a little.

It is their lifestyle that interests me and the pragmatism that it entails.

Cynthia

Cynthia Report 11 Mar 2013 08:23

Well, I've waded through a couple of sites re the history of this community and found it quite heavy going so, I changed tack slightly and found this:


http://www.anabaptists.org/doctrine.html


It's easier reading but there is SO much of it to read but it's very helpful if anyone wants to compare the way the Anabaptists perceive Scripture and the more orthodox perceptions.



Personally, I would like to hear a conversation between senior clerics from the three main branches of Christianity (Catholic - Orthodox - Protestant) and the Anabaptists/Mennonites, on the difference of the interpretation of Scripture.


I say 'between senior clerics', because it is not unknown for many lay folk to given their own interpretation of their faith, which isn't actual correct - it's more their personal view than the official view, If you know what I mean :-S


AnotherCanuck

AnotherCanuck Report 11 Mar 2013 03:35

Patrick....This thread has nothing to do with solicitors & Anna Baptist :-|
Its with regards to Anabaptists re religious sects....Thanks.

K/Regards,
A/Canuck.

PatrickM

PatrickM Report 11 Mar 2013 00:38

Call me silly if you like, but what has any of this thread got to do with solicitors.

http://www.longmores-solicitors.co.uk/site/people/profile/abb

Or is it I got the wrong Anna Baptist??







































































:-P

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 11 Mar 2013 00:24

I googled kibbutz


it seems that the origin of kibbutz goes back to around 1909, when jewish people moved to tarts of Palestan, onto land that had been bought by contributions from jews around the world.

They wanted to be farmers, but were not farmers, and did not have money to support themselves as farmers .................... individually, that is.


Someone realised that if they worked together a) they would have enough combined money to support themselves, b) they would be able to combine together to do the work, and c) living together would be safer in what was a dangerous place.

The first kibbutzim were built around the Sea of Galilee.


Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism.


More recently, some kibbutzim have been privatized, and changes have been made in the communal lifestyle

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 11 Mar 2013 00:12

Anabaptists consider the Bible to be their only rule for life and religion ....... and have been persecuted by both Protestant and Catholic religions


Anabaptist really means "re-baptising" ........................ the early members of the religion had been baptised into either a Catholic or a Protestant religion as babies, but the Anabaptists believe in adult baptism ................ so they were re-baptised.


It seems as though "Anabaptist" might even have been a derogatory term originally used by other Protestants back in the 16th century, but the Anabaptists later came to embrace it


There is no single defining set of beliefs, doctrines, and practices that characterizes all Anabaptists.


Groups existing today with early Anabaptist roots include the Mennonites, Amish, Dunkards, Landmark Baptists, Hutterites, and various Beachy and Brethren groups

JustJohn

JustJohn Report 10 Mar 2013 23:54

On Wiki, it says first Baptist Church was 1609 in Amsterdam. That sounds right time to me.

1662 was the year of schism in Church of England (over imposition of Common Prayer Book) and that caused the birth of Congregational and Independent Churches (many of whom are now URC).

The Baptist movement in England was well established by 1662 and they were called dissenters.

I think main difference between Baptists and Anabaptists may be that Baptists tried to follow Paul's rules for church growth. Whereas Anabaptists went back to the very early days after Pentecost where everyone was throwing their goods into the pot, sharing equally and living communally. Please note I say "may be". Really don't know, and feel I should :-( :-(

JustJohn

JustJohn Report 10 Mar 2013 23:17

Sylvia. The Wesleys were famously converted by the Moravians, being on a boat with them in about 1735 when they went to USA as missionaries. And later attending their meetings in Aldersgate St in London. I remember leader was a Count von Zindendorf.

But I think John Wesley was not so complimentary about Anabaptists. Must read some of his notes and check that.

There was also a Christian community founded at Trefecca (near Brecon) by Hywel Harries. That was a small number and flourished greatly for a few years in 18th century.

Many Christian "communes" have failed to my knowledge because next generation not as committed, infighting, greed etc. These Anabaptist groups certainly seem to have an answer to keeping their communities and their religion alive.

Joeva

Joeva Report 10 Mar 2013 23:13

Sharron,

Not that knowledgeable about the Kibbutz origins but think that it was began at least a century ago in Israel and has been growing ever since.

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 10 Mar 2013 23:08

if you try googling Anabaptists and Moravians, it's all very complicated, and meshed together.

and there are different theories on how these Protestant groups arose.


For example, the Hutterites seem to have begun in the Tyrol region, moved to Moravia because of persecution in the 16th century, led by a Jacob Hutter ............. hence the name.

They then seem to have supplanted or replaced the Moravians ..................... but were then persecuted out of Moravia.


I do know the Hutterites eventually ended up in Russia, living there seemingly pretty happily for about 100 years, or until towards the end of the 19th century.

Anabaptists are all pacifists ....................... the Hutterites also refuse to wear any kind of uniform, even police or ambulance.

So they left Russia when there was a change in some law that would have required them to wear a uniform.

They apparently visited several countries, and decided that Canada, specifically the Prairie Provinces of Manitoba and Saskatchewan, best suited their purposes.


and they have lived here since around 1880/1890


The Hutterites could be considered the most modern of the 3 groups, Amish, Mennonite and Hutterite.

They drive cars, they have modern farm and industrial equipment, they have phones and cell phones, They have radios and TVs, and computers.


whereas the Amish are the ones who stick most religiously to their old way of life.




16 Amish men and women in the US have just been sentenced to varying years-long terms in jail for "hate crimes"

The Amish do not believe in cutting hair, or cutting off beards after marriage. This little group (most related by blood or marriage) decided that others in the community were not obeying all the religious laws, so they went out one day and cut off men's beards and women's hair ............... full knowing how devastating that would be.

The US authorities decided this was a "hate crime".

There are now worries about where these 16 are going to serve their time in prison ............. and whether they will in fact be corrupted by the presence of TVs, computers, etc in the prisons.

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 10 Mar 2013 23:03

John

The Moravians pre-date the Anabaptists .................... the Moravian Church began in the late 14th century, as a Protestant religion, and eventually almost all of the region known as Moravia and Bohemia was Protestant, until the Jesuits were sent in form Rome to re-establish Catholic schools etc. The religion itself was seemingly outlawed

There were small groups of Moravians who managed to survive in out-of-the-way places.


There are currently well over 800,000 Moravians around the world today, and they still send out missionaries to convert others to their religion, as they have done since around 1730 or so.

Sharron

Sharron Report 10 Mar 2013 22:54

Does anybody know, before I look it up, when the Kibbutz movement started?

As for the the origins of the Baptist church,I have Googled and there does not to be a consensus on it.

JustJohn

JustJohn Report 10 Mar 2013 22:48

I really feel very ignorant about Anabaptists.

They seem to reject infant baptism and re-baptise as adults. But baptists do that too, as far as I know. I found on IGI baptism of famous Baptist preacher of 19th century, Charles Haddon Spurgeon. In an indpeendent chapel in Essex as an infant. Then of course he had his famous baptism (I think in May 1850) in River Lark and I have stood at spot on river bank where he was baptised.

So two questions I would like to ask:
1. What is difference between Baptists and Anabaptists?
2. Is there any connection between the Protestant movement in Europe called the Moravians and these Hutterites, Mennonites and Amish? They all seem to speak German to a degree.

Incidentally, John Wesley believed in adult baptism. But he also believed the Bible recommended a baptism as an infant. And the idea was that the sins of child were "covered" by at least one parent being a committed Christian until that child was of an age to "decide for Jesus" or reject Christ.