General Chat

" You will eat, bye and bye
In that glorious land in the sky
Work and pray, live on hay
You'll get pie in the sky when you die."
(Joe Hill)

The British public have always been very gullible when it comes to finance all the way back to the South Sea Bubble.

Within living memory there has been

the Rolls Razor scam,
various too-cheap-to-be-true car insurance scams,
10% return on funds invested in Gibraltar scams,
the Labour party,
post war credits,
ISAs,
credit protection (public and business),
TalkTalk,
Ratners jewelry,
the housing ponzi scheme (which like all ponzi schemes demands new entrants to stay alive, hence the recent relaxation in mortgage requirements),
Briitish Playland (cars),
the NHS,
car tax,
the European Union

and last but by no means least the LibDemCon party (aka Dave's pink Tories ) who encourage naive and well meaning people such as Mr Cocoa to believe this sort of thing might be true "I have spent all my life believing you should work hard, earn as much as you can fairly, save hard and give hard."

Of all these one which refuses to go away and lie down is the housing ponzi scam. Far too many people mistakenly see their 3 bed piece of ticky-tacky as a gold plated investment.

Another is that the paper gains from buying a house are sancrosant from government depredations such as paying for nursing care. Like it or not there is simply no way nursing care for the over 70s can be paid for without taking assets from those pensioners who have them.

If you take an actuarial look at the projections the current pension/nursing care setup is good for another 10-15 years. Beyond that another great grab/cut will be needed UNLESS the proportion of people of working age is greatly increased.

One way of doing that would be to increase the pension age to 70.

Another way of is of course unlimited immigration from easter Europe, Turkey and anywhere else that might be thought of as Europe. Ask Eurovision or FIFA, they know lol.

Ho hum. Victorian workhouses ???

The reality is that just like any British House of Commons before the Great Reform Act in 1837 our honorable members are out to make a killing (Next on the menu: vacated social housing in central London) and do not care two hoots about things that possibly should be true but are not.

The upside I guess is that the comfy consensus is being sliightly ruffled by UKIP - who have their own slate of impossible dreams.

As to health and hip joints here is a reference: Many NHS districts are now refusing such operations to obese people.

http://scienceblogs.com/obesitypanacea/2010/04/12/excess-weight-predicts-younger/

"And I learned the truth from Lenny Bruce,
That all my wealth won't buy me health
So I smoke a pint of tea a day."

So stop banging on about the poor pensioners who have had their run and let the young have a chance without forking out for us grey beards. It is not as if getting old is a surprise with all its wonderful changes.

"A man, he's like a rusty wheel
On a rusty cart
He sings his song as he rattles along
And then he falls apart

A man, he's like a briar
He covers himself with thorns
He laughs like a clown when his fortune's down
And his clothes are ragged and torn

A man, he's like a three string fiddle
Hanging upon the wall
He plays when somebody scrapes on the bow
Or he cannot play at all

A man, he's like his father
Wishes he was never born
He longs for the time when the clock will chime
And he's dead for evermore

And we'll sing hallelujah
At the turning of the year
And we work all day in the old fashioned way
'Till the shining star appears"

:-D

and after that diatribe, how about a response to Sue's posting, cos I'm quite interested in that too



supercrutch Report 16 Mar 2013 02:30
What the hell do hip replacements have to do with not caring for your health? Boy am I looking forward to the explanation of that!

Well. Our children say that they ‘hope’ to inherit from us, but don’t ‘expect’, which is the same principle I applied to my parents. They earned the money and deserved to spend it on their comfort in their old age. We just wish that the in-laws had the same approach rather than go without so that they have something to leave to their ‘children’. Although I could be wrong, it does seem to be the less affluent older person who persists in >wanting/hoping< there is something left.

Most adults would appreciate extra cash when they are starting out in life or have a young family, so that is the time to help them, not wait until they are also pensioners.

Although we haven’t gone as far as signing over our residence to our children (with the hope that we live for another 7 years) we have taken out a joint life insurance policy to be placed in Trust when the first of us dies. Although it could be used for our comfort, in our minds it is ‘ring fenced’. A simple life insurance to pay out at the parent’s death to ‘child beneficiaries’ would act in the same way.

If I can try and precis what I think Rollo is saying. Do not lay up for tomorrow, because tomorrow never comes.

Very scriptural but not how most of us have been raised.

I was thinking of what happens when an economy of a country completely collapses. It has happened a few times in my lifetime. Presumably all welfare goes out of window - it is worth nothing. A £500 a week pension fund will not even buy you a loaf of bread. Presumably older people are expected to go out to work again to earn money to pay for operations, and if they can't work they die a painful death at quite an early age..

This happens in many parts of India. If you need a hospital operation when you are old, you depend on your family and sometimes your village to pay for it. Or you die in pain. And it must be similar in Zimbabwe now. And Greece and Spain are teetering on that precipice.

Is that what you think will happen in Britain, Rollo?

I worked all my life - apart from fiv yers whn my son was born, threfore I have paid taxes and National Insurance all my lif, as did my husband, and both my parents, none of us ever claiming from the state - we scrimped and saved to buy our houses so no way am I going to allow the state to use money I slaved for to help those who could not be bothered to go out to work and just sat back and took everything they could from the state

the fact that this government - well any government - allows people to be on the dole for years without ever getting a job is indefensible - I have the greatest sympathy for those who have been made redundant aftr years of working and ar unable to gt new employment, but not the wasters who have never ever tried to get a job

AnnC Absolutely right imo :-)

That was how most of us were brought up, I expect. My church teaches earn all you can (legally), save all you can and give all you can.

Now I have failed in my life to follow that, I readily admit. I have earned quite a lot (well over a million pounds since 1963, probably more than twice the average), but have saved not a lot and regret that I can only give small amounts in old age.

But someone who sits indoors and says "I can't be bothered to go out and earn by working at anything that will give me grief" is a drain on our society. They will save nothing. They will have no money or property to give to next generation to give them a start.

Amazing how many more are back out at work round here since Christmas. People who were saying there is "no suitable work in the Valleys". Not sure how many are paying tax and NI - but that is another thread for another time.

What a load of tosh..............not everyone who needs a hip replacement is overweight FGS.

My degeneration was caused by hurdling and bleedin' gymnastics when I was in Junior School and then I was in the Junior Olympic Gymnastics Club in Grammar School.

I continued to swim and play badminton until I had to stop aged 45.

I am going out now, thankfully, cos I am really peeved with Rollo's answer.

I'll come with you

This situation in Cyprus seems to back up what Rollo has said. From what I understand, if you have savings of over Euros 100,000 (about £80,000?) you have to pay a windfall tax to Government of 9.95%.

And they take it straight out of your bank account without warning.

And other Euro countries in extreme difficulties are thinking of similar measures.

This could propmpt a serious bank crisis and queues like Northern Rock in Cyrpus when banks open after their holiday on Tuesday morning. :-( :-(

Edit. Just noticed Susan with numbers has started a thread on the Cyprus situation. The certainties we have become used to (safe banking, ops when we need them, welfare benefits) are going out of the window possibly.

AnnCardiff Report 16 Mar 2013 11:22

I worked all my life - apart from fiv yers whn my son was born, threfore I have paid taxes and National Insurance all my lif, as did my husband, and both my parents, none of us ever claiming from the state - we scrimped and saved to buy our houses so no way am I going to allow the state to use money I slaved for to help those who could not be bothered to go out to work and just sat back and took everything they could from the state

the fact that this government - well any government - allows people to be on the dole for years without ever getting a job is indefensible - I have the greatest sympathy for those who have been made redundant aftr years of working and ar unable to gt new employment, but not the wasters who have never ever tried to get a job



>>>>>>>>>>Wot Ann said. Totally agree.

thank you Muffy :-D :-D <3

Unless there has been a change of the rules, I always thought that the nursing home care costs were funded by the government but that the residential costs had to be paid for by the resident.

I think a lot of people in the past did not claim that part of their nursing care costs from the NHS.

Whilst I think the government should cover any medical costs/nursing costs, a resident should pay for their residential costs out of any money they may have and for which ever home they chose/agree to live in.

Rollo I had my hip replaced many years ago. It has now come of age this year. Was 8 and a half stone at the time. Wish I was that now. Knees playing up now

Vera

Don't know about Government funding nursing care, Vera.

Would agree with you about residential costs. But would like to see them capped at a maximum of the price of staying in a nice hotel in that area.

I remember an old retired Major staying almost all year in a nice hotel in Hove. I found out he was charged £200 a week (about 10 years ago) for full board (Lunch and dinner) and lived a rather luxurious lifestyle. I was paying £50 a night for bed and breakfast so he was probably a good negotiator.

I thought it was crazy that, if he lived in a residential home, he would have to spend about £300 a week in those days and - horror of horrors - be expected to join in wih the social activities. Also, he had plenty of staff who treated him as a valued customer and plenty of younger people to chat to at meal times.

Yes, you could cap the costs for residential care. Otherwise you can have the scenario where a resident would have paid for years, the assets dry up and then he/ she may have to move from what he/she have known as home.

I can still see a flaw in this because if you are not paying the full costs, cant see any government willing to fund the difference to allow you to remain in say one of the more prestigious private residential homes.

The Major may have been an exception and was obviously an independent sort of chap. Maybe the costs the residential homes are charging should be looked at to see if they have to be more because of the type of resident they get who may need more day to day support than the Major

I have worked all my life etc and have very little asset in my property but don't see why it should be earmarked for my daughter and for others to pay for my rent. I have been able to help her move on so that's enough.

Vera

Hotels would not have to change everything for Elf & Safety like a residential home, I suppose. Major would have been accepting the risk if he had a fall. He was probably close to 90 and was very independent and communal living would not have suited him (or me, I suspect).

And the premises would not have been regularly inspected like a residential home (Egon Ronay does not count as an inspection). But I have often wondered why these failing hotels in Llandudno and Porthcawl and elsewhere do not cotton on to the fact that there are quite a lot of elderly single people who want an independent and luxurious life in old age.

In California, a distant aunt moved into a Quaker Friends home in Sonoma County. She had a valuable property and no one close to leave her money too. So she sold her house, paid a large capital sum for a fully serviced flat in a village for wealthy old people and the rest of her assets paid for rent, and eventually expensive nursing care. Her apartment was so luxurious and she lived out her old age (94 when she died) in huge comfort.

Never seen that in UK. But I have seen an awful lot of expensive, dirty, uncaring places where people rot out their declining years. Often heavily drugged. I have a very small list of where my family can put me if the time comes. And a very long list of which ones to avoid.