General Chat

Hi Mick, good that the cert' has confirmed some details, age not withstanding lol, my grandfather knocked a hefty 6 years off his age when he married my grandmother so not surprised ( mindyou he lied on all other counts too.)

Re Henry's first wife Elizabeth Heather - I got hung up on looking for a death but there was nothing - as others have reported. So I chanced my arm at looking for Elizabeth Heather - no idea why she wouldn't take the name Harmes but there was the possibility - there is this

Name Elizabeth Heather
Year of Registration 1886
Quarter of Registration Apr-May-Jun
Registration District Kingston
Registration County Surrey
Age at Death: 34
Volume Number 2A
Volume Page 181

right place, right time, given her dob was c1850, and the right name if we assume she died/kept her maiden name. Is this a stretch too far? I am new at this don't forget so I don't know how many liberties I can take. ;-)

btw found another variation Mackeleworth

mick

Born c1846 on census 1871, but ages were flexible on the census, as you've already discovered.

Two Elizabeth Heathers recorded in Kingston in 1891, both married. One born c1849, married to a William Heather, one born c1850 married to a George Heather.

George and Elizabeth Heather still alive and together in 1901

Ditto William and Elizabeth Heather still going strong in 1901, so the death wasn't either of them.

Hi both I might be barking up the wrong tree, but I did recall seeing this so went to hunt for it again

1891 England Census about Elizabeth Harmes
Name: Elizabeth Harmes
Age: 46
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Pauper
Gender: Female
Where born: Kingston, Surrey, England
Civil Parish: Kingston
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
Town: Kingston
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: Married

Education:

Employment status:

View Image
Registration District: Kingston
Sub-registration District: Kingston
ED, institution, or vessel: Kingston Union Workhouse

On the 1871 that shows Henry Harmes and Elizabeth together, there is a daughter Ellen Heather.... I wonder if finding her late on would help in finding out when Elizabeth died?

1871 England Census about Ellen Heather
Name: Ellen Heather
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Henry Harmes
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Harmes
Gender: Female
Where born: Kingston, Surrey, England
Civil Parish: Kingston on Thames
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
Town: Kingston
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Registration District: Kingston
Sub-registration District: Kingston
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Household Schedule Number: 92
Piece: 859
Folio: 13
Page Number: 18
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Harmes 20
Elizabeth Harmes 25
Ellen Heather 7 <<<<<<<<<

That 1891 Find of Rose's does tally very well with age of Elizabeth in 1871 census.

I found this 1881 entry for an Ellen Heather born Kingston, supposedly 'sister'.

The wife of the head of household is an Elizabeth, similar age to Elizabeth Harmes nee Heather.

Maybe just co-incidence?

Census 1881

Address: Richmond Rd West, Kingston County: Surrey

PORTER, Francis Head Married M 35 1846 Brickrs Labourer
Kingston on Thames, Surrey
PORTER, Elizbth Wife Married F 35 1846 Kingston on Thames, Surrey<<<<<<<<<
HEATHER, Ellen Sister Single F 18 1863 Kingston on Thames, Surrey<<<<<<<<<<<

I looked at that, Kucinta.... cant find a marriage for them?

Not sure what to make of this marriage - could it be Ellen?

Marriages Dec 1894
Healey-Heather Ellen Mary Kingston 2a 634 <<<<
Heather Ellen Mary H Kingston 2a 634 <<<<<<<
Roberts Mary Kingston 2a 634
Searle Edwin Kingston 2a 634
Smith George Thomas Kingston 2a 634

Rose - I wondered if there were no marriage to Francis because Elizabeth was married already - to Harry Chapman Harnes.

So they were just living over the brush, but she was acting as Mrs Porter.

I think that might be it Kucinta...I can't find anything for Francis even lol

Wish I could locate Francis in 1891, to see who, if anyone, he was with then, as it looks pretty certain that Elizabeth Harmes was in the workhouse as a pauper going by Rose's 1891 find.

No sign of him in 1891, so I wonder if he made off, which would account for Elizabeth being in the workhouse /

Yes, she doesn't seem to have been too fortunate in her choice of men!

Kucinta, do you think the name on the image might not be Porter but Pryor?

I ask because it's not very distinct and there is this death

Deaths Mar 1884 (>99%)
Pryor Francis John 38 Kingston 2a 187

yes, it could easily be.Pryor or even Poyer on the actual image - not sure how they got Porter out of that.

If it is Francis John Pryor who was with Elizabeth, he seems to have had a previous marital entanglement:

Marriages Jun 1867
ALDIS John Kingston 2a 363
HOBBS Selina Jenkins Kingston 2a 363
PRYOR Francis John Kingston 2a 363 <<<<<<<<<<
Spooner Emily Kingston 2a 363

There is Francis John Pryor on the 1871 with wife Selina, mistranscribed as Selma) living in Hamps , but I can't make out his occupation?

edit but he is with wife Selina in 1881, in Kingston so can't be him with Elizabeth.

Add: and she is a widow in 1891.

Ok - The pauper find is pretty compelling so I shall bin the idea that this deceased Elizabeth Heather was really Harmes.

RR in that census report showing Elizabeth Harmes as married - no husband with her in the workhouse? I know you would have said... :-)

The Ellen Heather connection is also a good one. Henry and Elizabeth got married in 1869, so Ellen was 5 when they married. In 1881 Ellen turns up as a 'sister' to an Elizabeth of the right age in the right place but now with the name Porter. No marriage for Liz and Frank Porter, and we think this is because, if it is the right Elizabeth, she was already married to Henry Harmes.

Then we think this poor wife of Henry, who ran off with Frank Porter, was left by Frank (or he died), which explains her being in the workhouse.

We don't know if Henry and Liz got divorced. Can we find out somehow?

This is great stuff. Thank you as ever.

Edit; ok Pryor isn't a goer.

Sorry if I am backtracking somewhat , I am just wanting to confirm that the Elizabeth in the wokhouse is not Eliza....?

1881 England Census about John Harmes
Name: John Harmes
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Ann Harmes
Gender: Male
Where born: Kingston, Surrey, England
Civil Parish: Kingston on Thames
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street Address: 7 Spring Cott Fairfield Rd
Education:

Employment status:

View Image
Occupation: Sailmaker
Registration District: Kingston
Sub-registration District: Kingston
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 834
Folio: 52
Page Number: 30
Household Members:
Name Age
Ann Harmes 74
John Harmes 35
Thomas G. Harmes 23
Henry Chapman 36
Alice H.M. Harmes 1