General Chat

The secondary school down the road went up in flames over the weekend.


What I found so shocking about the whole disaster was that a building that often contained over eight hundred people would go up quite as quickly as it did.

The main part was built using an el cheapo technique called CLASP. There are lots of schools built like this all over Hampshire - my mate was a qty surveyor with Hants CC at the time and he was scathing about the poor quality even when it was done to spec.

I guess the pupils will all have to go to Lancing College now where they will be surely welcome following up on T May's fine words. Or maybe not.

per ardua ad astra

A few years back there was a terrible fire at a primary school near here.

Like you, I was amazed how quickly that one took hold too in a relatively modern school. It was believed to have started with an electrical fault above a ceiling and spread quickly in the roof void.
Hopefully designs have been reviewed and checks put in place to prevent such devastation in future.

On the positive side - if it had been during a school day, someone would have spotted the smoke & hit the fire alarm.

My first thoughts were of the exam course work that could have been lost. If that was the case, the students have 9 months or so to resubmit.

A lot of it burned down in 1986 during a school day.

I thought the main aspect of CLASP built buildings was the use of Asbestos.

The reason Asbestos was used because of it's heat resistance and non-flammability.

ab inconvenienti

Sometimes I wonder just where our resident experts took their science / engineering degree as they are so authoratative. Barton Peveril?

By far the usual reason for building fires these days is electrical faults. The use of asbestos in the construction won't help at all as the fire runs down the electrical conduit and insulation. CLASP facilitates this.

Asbestos was used over many years for better heating insulation. Asbestos sheet was easy to cut to shape, machine and fix. Shame about the downsides. Another application, using tape, was pipe insualtion mainly in lg building and marine applications.

Stuff built since around 2005 ( and even the 1990s ) is far more resistant.to electrical fires even if the expected long term life of the buildings is not that great. The new building regs have to comply with EU building standards. OTOH some Tory MPs have denounced such regs as costly and "guilding the lily" so post brexit buildings from, say, 2020 might be approached with a degree oif caution.



It is a thought but the "ring main" system of domestic electrical installation usual in the UK ( never for large buildings such as schools ) is illegal in most f Europe to the point that deployment is a criminal offence. It is not unusual foi expats in France, Spain and Italy to wire up their renovations using ring main 'cos it is a lot cheaper. .The USA does not allow ring main either and on top mandates domestic power max at 120v which (unlike 220v ) is not usually fatal for adults. I have survived 220v though not recommended.

Do you know, I wonder that sometimes myself!

Ring mains ARE a good idea............when used intelligently...........basically two 30 amp cables in parallel, backed up with a 30 amp fuse, or breaker these days
you can never have enough sockets....always in the wrong places...

most appliances ,tellys videos radios and the like only draw small amount, hence the six way or more, adaptors found under video cabinets etc

this is where overloading takes place

The cable spec for a normal 30/32 amp ring mains is only 2.5mm which should have 20 amp protection when connected singly.

One problem that can arise, especially if sockets have been added or removed since the original installation and the work has been less than perfect, is that the ring can be broken at some point leaving you with two radials. If for some reason, the total load on one of the radials drawing near the max, then the cable can start to overheat.

Even worse if again due to a botched installation, two rings have been inadvertently cross linked, then it is possible to draw up to 60 amps before the fuse or breaker blows, through a cable designed to handle a third of that.

As far as the fire is concerned, it will be interesting to hear what the cause was. Overheating in electrical connections which haven't been touched in years can occur quite easily, especially where the power being drawn is high.

It's the school summer holidays. You wouldn't expect a heavy load even if they were undertaking a deep-clean.

I have no idea what Barton Peveril, in Eastleigh, Hampshire has to do with Selsey Academy, in Sussex :-S :-S

As for the conjecture, worthy and wordy though it be - the Fire Brigade currently reckon the most likely cause of the fire was accidental ignition caused by a workman carrying out maintenance on the roof.

So, nothing to do with the type of building, or electrical circuits.

Are we now going to have a detailed lecture on the type of tool the workman may have been using? :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

more often, I have found that diy'ers don't appreciate what they are adding, or removing.. to household wiring..

ill connected plug tops are highly likely to cause fires, although factory fitted ones go a long way to counteract this....

Bob

My nephew's washing machine kept conking out.

He found - years later - the plug (connected when he bought it - presumably in the factory) had been wired wrongly :-S :-S

An elementary school here in the city went up in flames late last week.

It was an older building, fire started on the 3rd floor and spread to the attic. Damage is still being assessed ............... school starts the day after Labour Day, Monday September 5th

Fire chief is muttering "possibly" suspicious.

Like you ....... it was amazing to see how fast it went up, although maybe not as the main building, the one that caught fire, was built in 1911/12, although it is all brick.

Interesting that the school was put on a list of schools to be considered during the coming year for possible closure, in line with a provincial government mandated that all Vancouver schools should have 95% occupancy for full grants to be given ................. 95% not allowed to include "specialist" rooms such as art, music, quiet room, library, etc, it has to be 95% seats occupied in ALL rooms.

The school (as with all the others being considered) does not meet that standard .............. at the moment. There is a lot of redevelopment in the area which will mean lots of kiddies in 2-5 years time .............. but the government isn't allowing that kind of "think ahead".

ah well .......... there is a provincial election next May :-D

"Collection of Loosely Assembled Steel Parts"

The CLASP school building system has had a rotten reputation from its inception when a lot of seconday schools / extensions were needed in a hurry because of ROSLA (raising of school leaving age education act from 14 to 16 ).

As well as any amount of asbestos in a CLASP bulding they tend / are designed to flex - a "feature" in areas liable to mining subsidence. The weak structure has also made CLASP buildings difficult to heat, susceptible to being too hot in summer and above all liable to sudden destructive fires. It doesn't matter much what initially sets off the fire once set it will race through the building which has no serious built in fire resistance at all. CLASP buildings are unfit for purpose full stop.

There was once a systematic plan to put paid to CLASP schools but like many useful things for working people it has been dumped on the altar of the great god austerity.

There is plenty about the many problems of CLASP school building on the net just enter clasp school buildings into Google and you'll be away.

http://www.asbestosexposureschools.co.uk/pdfnewslinks/Fire%20in%20system%20built%20schools%20_3_.pdf


Ring mains are restricted to serving a max area of 100m2 which essentially means domestic premises and small commercial premises with a light electrical load. Lighting circuits should not be on the ring main while heavy duty stuff such as cookers have a dedicated spur. The big upside of ring mains is that they are cheap n ez to install. The downside is that testing them eg for balance and other faults is not ez at all. In any case they are only to be found in a handful of small administrations outside the UK. Within the UK ring mains are not uised in schools, factories, warehouses etc etc etc. which usually have a 3 phase supply not something you can do with a ring main.

Whether using a ring main or fused spuir system the insulation life is generally about 30 years ie anything built before 1980 should def have been rewired by now. Well, there might be new plugs and consumer unit but the chances are that the heavy expense of a complete rewiring has been avoided. Hence the never ending electrical fires especially in budget and MHO buildings.

Oh right.

Hmm, I believe it was you, Rollo who first mentioned CLASP buildings, beside which, it was probably a workman who set the building alight, so the rest is irrelevant.

A secondary school in Southend has also been on fire and the fire crews had to use the swimming pool next door when the water supply failed. This one appears to have started in the roof and destroyed 18 classrooms, though apparently they don't yet know the cause.

why is it irrelevant?

UK Building Regulations require that in case of fire a building must be able to resist the spread of fire long enough that people are not put at risk i.e. have time to escape. In the case that people of restricted mobility regularly use the buidling that has to be taken into account.

CLASP buildings fail on this except for a very few which have been modified. All are in the public sector and those built before 2001 ( nearly all ) have a derogation from compliance (on reasons of cost).

It is the cause (the workman) that is irrelevant what matters is the abysmal fire resistance of the building. Fortunately it was empty.

There is a clear and present danger that there is going to be a disaster with one of these CLASP buildings involving a school. There have already been serious incidents causing the death of old people but that doesn't really register with the public at large. A catastrophe at a school would. This is the opinion of UK Chief Fire Officers. not y.t.

remember Aberfan and the fallout ?