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JaneyCanuck
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18 Nov 2010 18:39 |
I do indeed have a thread about Reuben, my grx2 grandfather. But it consists of me talking to myself ... and I thought I'd get more attention here. ;)
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=980840
Where is Reuben in 1841? Who are his parents?
1851
Name: Ruben Cooper [Reuben Cooper] Age: 25 Estimated birth year: abt 1826 Relation: Head Spouse's name: Mary Cooper Where born: Calverton, Nottinghamshire, England Occupation: Ag Lab, of course Civil Parish: Calverton County/Island: Nottinghamshire Registration district: Basford
Ruben Cooper 25 Mary Cooper 24 - Mary Ann Falowell Sarah Cooper 3 William Cooper 4 Mary Ann Cooper 11
William and Mary are actually twins 4 months old.
Births Dec 1850 Cooper Mary Ann Basford 15 421 Cooper William Basford 15 421
I haven't got certificates, but I assume Sarah was registered as Cooper; there are no F*well births to fit registered up to 1848.
Births Mar 1848 ? COOPER Sarah Basford 15 419 Births Jun 1848 ? Cooper Sarah Basford 15 427
Reuben (which is of course spelled many and various ways) and Mary Ann married in 1872. Nope, not a typo. ;) On one child's birth certificate, she is "Farrowell", an old spelling (pronunciation) that survives in Australia.
I assume a pre-existing marriage on one part, but can't find one, or a death (at least for a Cooper) to match just prior to 1872. Both claimed to be unmarried when they married, and Mary Ann married as Fallowell. At least, by their consistent ages in the censuses, they were too young to have married before registration (although not everything got registered ...)
There are numerous submitted records in the IGI re the family of Reuben, i.e. parents and siblings, and the odd extracted one. There are three submissions for this marriage:
ROBERT COOPER Spouse: SARAH SMITH Marriage: 05 MAY 1823 Calverton, Nottingham, England
One might think it looks faithful to parish records ... except that the other two say marriage 15 May and banns 15 May, respectively. I looks like there was a marriage, anyhow. Reuben's 1872 marriage certificate says his father was Robert, Frame Work Knitter.
The IGI has these alleged children of Robert Cooper and Sarah Smith:
1. THOS COOPER Christening: 21 JAN 1827 Calverton, Nottingham, England 2. HANNAH COOPER Christening: 06 SEP 1829 Calverton, Nottingham, England 3. EMMA COOPER Christening: 09 OCT 1836 Calverton, Nottingham, England
plus an Alice with no mother. Emma (and others) are with Sarah or what seem to be her Smith parents, James and Elizabeth, in early censuses. No Reuben. Note an extracted record:
Name: Ann Cooper Baptism/Christening Date: 27 Dec 1831 > Baptism/Christening Place: WESLEYAN METHODIST, CALVERTON, NOTTINGHAM, ENGLAND Birth Date: 24 Nov 1831 Father's Name: Robert Cooper Mother's Name: Sarah Smith > Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C07748-1 System Origin: England-ODM Source Film Number: 528358 Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
If I could find Reuben in 1841, when he was about 15, I might have clues to his parentage. His mother Sarah Cooper (or so she seems to be) is living by him in later censuses.
In the 1841, I found:
Name: Robert Cooper Age: 40 Estimated birth year: abt 1801 Gender: Male Where born: Nottinghamshire, England >>> Occupation FWK = frame work knitter
Civil parish: Calverton Registration district: Basford County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Robert Cooper 40 Elizabeth Cooper 36 William Cooper 11 Sarah Cooper 7 Joseph Cooper 4
and in 1851
Robert Cooper 51 Elizabeth Cooper 41 William Cooper 21 Sarah Cooper 17 Joseph Cooper 24 - ? married and it looks like 24 (so unfortunately no children after 1837)
And there is a Sarah in 1841:
Name: Sarah Cooper Age: 35 Estimated birth year: abt 1806 Civil Parish: Radford County/Island: Nottinghamshire Registration district: Radford > in the workhouse
but no particular reason to think she is mine, although it would make sense if she had been deserted, for instance.
But no Reuben!! nowhere, by any name.
He is *not* the Reuben Cooper in Derbyshire, who lived a long life through the censuses with another wife. Unless mine lived a complete double life.
1851 x Name: Reuben Cooper x Age: 26 Estimated birth year: abt 1825 Relation: Head Spouse's name: Sarah Cooper Where born: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, England Civil Parish: Morton County/Island: Derbyshire
He's also not a Reuben Smith of similar features in the early censuses; I've tracked him too:
1851 x Name: Reuben Smith x Age: 24 Estimated birth year: abt 1827 Relation: Head Spouse's name: Ann Smith Where born: Basford, Nottinghamshire, England Civil Parish: Lenton County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Now, pay no attention to any information in any trees anywhere about this man. Some are from a cousin in Nottinghamshire, a fellow descendant of Reuben in my mum's generation who contacted me via Ancestry, who has made a complete hash of her efforts, partly with research supplied by me but misrecorded. And someone has:
Robert Cooper 1796 son of John Cooper and Elizabeth Parr ... Birth Calverton, Prince George's, Maryland, USA and same tree for John Cooper 1749: Birth Placé, Mayenne, Pays de la Loire, France
I wish.
So the question(s) are:
Who and where is (are?) Reuben Cooper before 1851?? Will the records at FMP/GR reveal him where my Ancestry sub failed?
First one to find him gets a kitten!
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JaneyCanuck
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18 Nov 2010 18:49 |
Just to add another possible hint:
Name: John Smith Or Hopkinson Baptism/Christening Date: 1816 Baptism/Christening Place: CALVERTON, NOTTINGHAM, ENGLAND Father's Name: William Hopkinson > Mother's Name: Sarah Smith > Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C04638-1 System Origin: England-ODM Source Film Number: 504087 Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
-- edit -- and?
Name: Mary Smith Baptism/Christening Date: 13 Mar 1814 Baptism/Christening Place: CALVERTON, NOTTINGHAM, ENGLAND Father's Name: Mother's Name: Sarah Smith > Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C04638-1 System Origin: England-ODM Source Film Number: 504087 Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
... in case Reuben was actually born before that alleged 1823 marriage ...
And indeed, next door to Reuben in 1851, there is
Name: John Smith Age: 27 Estimated birth year: abt 1824 Relation: Head Spouse's name: Mary Smith Where born: Calverton, Nottinghamshire, England
and next door to him are a Lot and Ann Smith of the older generation that I know nothing about.
Wait, I calculated wrong, he's too young. There are indeed a danged lot of both Smiths and Coopers in that neighbourhood.
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brummiejan
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18 Nov 2010 18:54 |
This is a long posting Janey, so bear with me! What is Reuben's father's name on the marriage cert? Jan
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brummiejan
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18 Nov 2010 18:55 |
Have you considered this?
Marriages Jun 1847 (>99%) BATES Mary Radford 15 865 Breffit Elizabeth Radford 15 865 Cooper Reuben Radford 15 865 Cousins William Radford 15 865 CROWDER Sarah Radford 15 865 NEWMAN Samuel Radford 15 865 Priestly Edmund Radford 15 865 WALLEY Elizabeth Radford 15 865
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JaneyCanuck
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18 Nov 2010 18:59 |
That will be the question, Jan.
His 1872 marriage certificate says Robert Cooper, frame work knitter.
I know it's long, but it's *complete*! Both the info I have, and the info I've ruled out, to avoid goose chases I've already engaged in. ;)
Speaking of which, my Reuben is also *not*
x Name: Reuben Marriott x Baptism/Christening Date: 08 Feb 1824 Baptism/Christening Place: CALVERTON, NOTTINGHAM, ENGLAND Father's Name: Cornelius Marriott Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C04638-1 System Origin: England-ODM Source Film Number: 504087 Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
I forget the details, but I tracked him, too. I have Marriotts from the area, but they didn't hook up with the Coopers until Reuben's daughter married the Mariotts' grx5 grandson or something.
But -- I haven't ruled this one out:
Name: Reuben Harris Baptism/Christening Date: 27 Jun 1824 Baptism/Christening Place: CALVERTON, NOTTINGHAM, ENGLAND Death Date: 03 Feb 1825 Father's Name: Thos. Harris > Mother's Name: Sarah Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C04638-1 System Origin: England-ODM Source Film Number: 504087 Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Um, duh. He died in 1825. Ruled out!
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JaneyCanuck
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18 Nov 2010 19:03 |
Oh, now we're going to leapfrog posts!
The 1847 marriage -- I think that is likely the Reuben Cooper in Morton, Derbyshire, in 1851, married to Sarah. Their eldest child is 3, which fits perfectly, but I'd have to get the certificate to rule it out ... sigh.
Also, my Reuben had a child aged 3 in 1851 -- who could of course have been not his.
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brummiejan
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18 Nov 2010 19:06 |
This is possibly Robert 1851, framework knitter:
1851 England Census
Name: Robert Cooper Age: 62 Estimated birth year: abt 1789 Relation: Head Spouse's name: Elizabeth Cooper Gender: Male Where born: Calverton, Nottinghamshire, England Civil Parish: Edingley County/Island: Nottinghamshire Registration district: Southwell Sub-registration district: Southwell
Robert Cooper 62 Elizabeth Cooper 65 John Cooper 33 Thomas White 5
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brummiejan
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18 Nov 2010 19:07 |
Same occ. as above:
1841 England Census
Name: Robert Cooper Age: 53 Estimated birth year: abt 1788 Gender: Male Where born: Nottinghamshire, England Civil Parish: Edingley Hundred: Thurgarton (Southwell Division) County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Registration district: Southwell Sub-registration district: Southwell
Robert Cooper 53 Elizabeth Cooper 54 Henry Cooper 28 John Cooper 23
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JaneyCanuck
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18 Nov 2010 19:12 |
True, but the one I'm looking at was in the right place in 1841/51. ;)
Name: Robert Cooper Age: 40 Estimated birth year: abt 1801 Gender: Male Where born: Nottinghamshire, England Occupation FWK = frame work knitter
Civil parish: Calverton Registration district: Basford County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Robert Cooper 40 Elizabeth Cooper 36 William Cooper 11 Sarah Cooper 7 Joseph Cooper 4
This looks like the marriage of the one you posted, and there's a son Henry 1812:
Groom's Name: Robert Cooper Bride's Name: Elizabeth Wagstaff Marriage Date: 20 Aug 1811 Marriage Place: Edingley, Nottingham, England Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M04734-1 System Origin: England-ODM Source Film Number: 504544 Collection: England Marriages, 1538–1973
The 41 and 51 you posted are the same man? Same wife and son.
Also, the one in Calverton has quite young children ... looking kind of like a second marriage / "marriage" ...
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JaneyCanuck
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18 Nov 2010 19:20 |
Don't be knocking yourself out. Anybody who wants to look through it, soak it in, take a poke at it ... Smiths and Coopers, could you ask for anything better?
I just ran across a christening in Calverton where the father was Joseph Smith and the mother was Sarah Roe ... I'm sure they had a brother-in-law John Doe somewhere, too.
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JaneyCanuck
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18 Nov 2010 22:18 |
Just talking to myself now. ;)
A theory?
1841
Name: Solomon Cooper (definitely says Solomon) Age: 20 Estimated birth year: abt 1821 Where born: Nottinghamshire, England Occupation: Ag Lab Civil Parish: Calverton County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Thomas Pepper 40 - farmre Anne Pepper 35 Elizabeth Pepper 7 Samuel Shelton 20 Solomon Cooper 20 Ann Wood 19
He wasn't born, doesn't marry or die, and isn't in any other census.
Solomon Henson and Solomon Meads, baptisms in batch C046381, are in the censuses independently.
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JaneyCanuck
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19 Nov 2010 17:32 |
As have several other people, I've had a PM from another member with a suggestion for my Reuben in 1841.
That Reuben is in Scotland. Now, I know better than to dismiss that -- it was another member here finding a grx3 grfather of mine marrying in Scotland in 1839, when he was from long Wiltshire roots and lived and died in Wiltshire as far as I knew (although I have recently found his marriage in Bristol), that cracked the case on where he was in 1841. I'd been searching in England ...
I've added that info to my ordinary thread. I think he's probably ruled out, but you never know.
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JaneyCanuck
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21 Nov 2010 01:09 |
It is indeed interesting, as has been noted in other threads on this board, that most queries here seem to be from old hands. I'm one.
I *have* had help on the boards at GR from people who found things I didn't -- amazing though that may seem. ;) The most memorable one is the other member who found that Wiltshire grx3 grfather of mine marrying in Scotland. I would not likely have run across that in a month of Sundays. I was stuck in England.
So I thought it reasonable to ask about Reuben (since I seemed to have bored people silly in my other thread on it).
One reason I thought this particularly was because I do not pay for access to FMP, and I'd wondered whether maybe those with access to those records might turn something up that was hiding from me because of some bizarre transcription error, or just omission, at the site I do use.
But I guess I'm stuck with this uncracked nut.
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JaneyCanuck
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22 Nov 2010 02:02 |
The info offered in reply in this thread is actually from Ancestry.
Can I assume that one or more of the advisors has checked the 1841 on FMP for Reuben Cooper (or a variant thereof) born c1825, in or near Calverton, Notts? That's kind of what I was hoping for.
Thanks.
Edit, Monday the 22nd.
One of the usual suspects in the wide TTF team has PMed me a list of all Reubens of the rightish age in Notts in 1841. (What about the Rubins and Ruebens and Rubens, I ask??)
So I have that now -- many I've tracked down already, some I'm not sure -- and I'll poke away at it.
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