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Reuben Cooper c1825 cCalverton Notts

ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 18 Nov 2010 18:39

I do indeed have a thread about Reuben, my grx2 grandfather. But it consists of me talking to myself ... and I thought I'd get more attention here. ;)

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=980840


Where is Reuben in 1841? Who are his parents?

1851

Name: Ruben Cooper
[Reuben Cooper]
Age: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1826
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Mary Cooper
Where born: Calverton, Nottinghamshire, England
Occupation: Ag Lab, of course

Civil Parish: Calverton
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Registration district: Basford

Ruben Cooper 25
Mary Cooper 24 - Mary Ann Falowell
Sarah Cooper 3
William Cooper 4
Mary Ann Cooper 11

William and Mary are actually twins 4 months old.

Births Dec 1850
Cooper Mary Ann Basford 15 421
Cooper William Basford 15 421

I haven't got certificates, but I assume Sarah was registered as Cooper; there are no F*well births to fit registered up to 1848.

Births Mar 1848 ?
COOPER Sarah Basford 15 419
Births Jun 1848 ?
Cooper Sarah Basford 15 427


Reuben (which is of course spelled many and various ways) and Mary Ann married in 1872. Nope, not a typo. ;) On one child's birth certificate, she is "Farrowell", an old spelling (pronunciation) that survives in Australia.

I assume a pre-existing marriage on one part, but can't find one, or a death (at least for a Cooper) to match just prior to 1872. Both claimed to be unmarried when they married, and Mary Ann married as Fallowell. At least, by their consistent ages in the censuses, they were too young to have married before registration (although not everything got registered ...)


There are numerous submitted records in the IGI re the family of Reuben, i.e. parents and siblings, and the odd extracted one. There are three submissions for this marriage:

ROBERT COOPER
Spouse: SARAH SMITH
Marriage: 05 MAY 1823 Calverton, Nottingham, England

One might think it looks faithful to parish records ... except that the other two say marriage 15 May and banns 15 May, respectively. I looks like there was a marriage, anyhow. Reuben's 1872 marriage certificate says his father was Robert, Frame Work Knitter.

The IGI has these alleged children of Robert Cooper and Sarah Smith:

1. THOS COOPER Christening: 21 JAN 1827 Calverton, Nottingham, England
2. HANNAH COOPER Christening: 06 SEP 1829 Calverton, Nottingham, England
3. EMMA COOPER Christening: 09 OCT 1836 Calverton, Nottingham, England

plus an Alice with no mother. Emma (and others) are with Sarah or what seem to be her Smith parents, James and Elizabeth, in early censuses. No Reuben. Note an extracted record:

Name: Ann Cooper
Baptism/Christening Date: 27 Dec 1831
> Baptism/Christening Place: WESLEYAN METHODIST, CALVERTON, NOTTINGHAM, ENGLAND
Birth Date: 24 Nov 1831
Father's Name: Robert Cooper
Mother's Name: Sarah Smith
> Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C07748-1
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 528358
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975



If I could find Reuben in 1841, when he was about 15, I might have clues to his parentage. His mother Sarah Cooper (or so she seems to be) is living by him in later censuses.


In the 1841, I found:

Name: Robert Cooper
Age: 40
Estimated birth year: abt 1801
Gender: Male
Where born: Nottinghamshire, England
>>> Occupation FWK = frame work knitter

Civil parish: Calverton
Registration district: Basford
County/Island: Nottinghamshire

Robert Cooper 40
Elizabeth Cooper 36
William Cooper 11
Sarah Cooper 7
Joseph Cooper 4

and in 1851

Robert Cooper 51
Elizabeth Cooper 41
William Cooper 21
Sarah Cooper 17
Joseph Cooper 24 - ? married and it looks like 24
(so unfortunately no children after 1837)


And there is a Sarah in 1841:

Name: Sarah Cooper
Age: 35
Estimated birth year: abt 1806
Civil Parish: Radford
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Registration district: Radford
> in the workhouse

but no particular reason to think she is mine, although it would make sense if she had been deserted, for instance.


But no Reuben!! nowhere, by any name.


He is *not* the Reuben Cooper in Derbyshire, who lived a long life through the censuses with another wife. Unless mine lived a complete double life.

1851
x Name: Reuben Cooper x
Age: 26
Estimated birth year: abt 1825
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Sarah Cooper
Where born: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, England
Civil Parish: Morton
County/Island: Derbyshire

He's also not a Reuben Smith of similar features in the early censuses; I've tracked him too:

1851
x Name: Reuben Smith x
Age: 24
Estimated birth year: abt 1827
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Ann Smith
Where born: Basford, Nottinghamshire, England
Civil Parish: Lenton
County/Island: Nottinghamshire


Now, pay no attention to any information in any trees anywhere about this man. Some are from a cousin in Nottinghamshire, a fellow descendant of Reuben in my mum's generation who contacted me via Ancestry, who has made a complete hash of her efforts, partly with research supplied by me but misrecorded. And someone has:

Robert Cooper 1796 son of John Cooper and Elizabeth Parr ...
Birth Calverton, Prince George's, Maryland, USA
and same tree for John Cooper 1749:
Birth Placé, Mayenne, Pays de la Loire, France

I wish.


So the question(s) are:

Who and where is (are?) Reuben Cooper before 1851?? Will the records at FMP/GR reveal him where my Ancestry sub failed?

First one to find him gets a kitten!

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 18 Nov 2010 18:49

Just to add another possible hint:

Name: John Smith Or Hopkinson
Baptism/Christening Date: 1816
Baptism/Christening Place: CALVERTON, NOTTINGHAM, ENGLAND
Father's Name: William Hopkinson
> Mother's Name: Sarah Smith
> Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C04638-1
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 504087
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

-- edit -- and?

Name: Mary Smith
Baptism/Christening Date: 13 Mar 1814
Baptism/Christening Place: CALVERTON, NOTTINGHAM, ENGLAND
Father's Name:
Mother's Name: Sarah Smith
> Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C04638-1
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 504087
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975


... in case Reuben was actually born before that alleged 1823 marriage ...


And indeed, next door to Reuben in 1851, there is

Name: John Smith
Age: 27
Estimated birth year: abt 1824
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Mary Smith
Where born: Calverton, Nottinghamshire, England

and next door to him are a Lot and Ann Smith of the older generation that I know nothing about.

Wait, I calculated wrong, he's too young. There are indeed a danged lot of both Smiths and Coopers in that neighbourhood.

brummiejan

brummiejan Report 18 Nov 2010 18:54

This is a long posting Janey, so bear with me! What is Reuben's father's name on the marriage cert?
Jan

brummiejan

brummiejan Report 18 Nov 2010 18:55

Have you considered this?

Marriages Jun 1847 (>99%)
BATES Mary Radford 15 865
Breffit Elizabeth Radford 15 865
Cooper Reuben Radford 15 865
Cousins William Radford 15 865
CROWDER Sarah Radford 15 865
NEWMAN Samuel Radford 15 865
Priestly Edmund Radford 15 865
WALLEY Elizabeth Radford 15 865

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 18 Nov 2010 18:59

That will be the question, Jan.

His 1872 marriage certificate says Robert Cooper, frame work knitter.

I know it's long, but it's *complete*! Both the info I have, and the info I've ruled out, to avoid goose chases I've already engaged in. ;)


Speaking of which, my Reuben is also *not*

x Name: Reuben Marriott x
Baptism/Christening Date: 08 Feb 1824
Baptism/Christening Place: CALVERTON, NOTTINGHAM, ENGLAND
Father's Name: Cornelius Marriott
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C04638-1
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 504087
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

I forget the details, but I tracked him, too. I have Marriotts from the area, but they didn't hook up with the Coopers until Reuben's daughter married the Mariotts' grx5 grandson or something.


But -- I haven't ruled this one out:

Name: Reuben Harris
Baptism/Christening Date: 27 Jun 1824
Baptism/Christening Place: CALVERTON, NOTTINGHAM, ENGLAND
Death Date: 03 Feb 1825
Father's Name: Thos. Harris
> Mother's Name: Sarah
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C04638-1
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 504087
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Um, duh. He died in 1825. Ruled out!

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 18 Nov 2010 19:03

Oh, now we're going to leapfrog posts!

The 1847 marriage -- I think that is likely the Reuben Cooper in Morton, Derbyshire, in 1851, married to Sarah. Their eldest child is 3, which fits perfectly, but I'd have to get the certificate to rule it out ... sigh.

Also, my Reuben had a child aged 3 in 1851 -- who could of course have been not his.

brummiejan

brummiejan Report 18 Nov 2010 19:06

This is possibly Robert 1851, framework knitter:

1851 England Census

Name: Robert Cooper
Age: 62
Estimated birth year: abt 1789
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Elizabeth Cooper
Gender: Male
Where born: Calverton, Nottinghamshire, England

Civil Parish: Edingley
County/Island: Nottinghamshire

Registration district: Southwell
Sub-registration district: Southwell

Robert Cooper 62
Elizabeth Cooper 65
John Cooper 33
Thomas White 5


brummiejan

brummiejan Report 18 Nov 2010 19:07

Same occ. as above:

1841 England Census

Name: Robert Cooper
Age: 53
Estimated birth year: abt 1788
Gender: Male
Where born: Nottinghamshire, England

Civil Parish: Edingley
Hundred: Thurgarton (Southwell Division)
County/Island: Nottinghamshire

Registration district: Southwell
Sub-registration district: Southwell

Robert Cooper 53
Elizabeth Cooper 54
Henry Cooper 28
John Cooper 23

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 18 Nov 2010 19:12

True, but the one I'm looking at was in the right place in 1841/51. ;)


Name: Robert Cooper
Age: 40
Estimated birth year: abt 1801
Gender: Male
Where born: Nottinghamshire, England
Occupation FWK = frame work knitter

Civil parish: Calverton
Registration district: Basford
County/Island: Nottinghamshire

Robert Cooper 40
Elizabeth Cooper 36
William Cooper 11
Sarah Cooper 7
Joseph Cooper 4



This looks like the marriage of the one you posted, and there's a son Henry 1812:

Groom's Name: Robert Cooper
Bride's Name: Elizabeth Wagstaff
Marriage Date: 20 Aug 1811
Marriage Place: Edingley, Nottingham, England
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M04734-1
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 504544
Collection: England Marriages, 1538–1973


The 41 and 51 you posted are the same man? Same wife and son.


Also, the one in Calverton has quite young children ... looking kind of like a second marriage / "marriage" ...

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 18 Nov 2010 19:20

Don't be knocking yourself out. Anybody who wants to look through it, soak it in, take a poke at it ... Smiths and Coopers, could you ask for anything better?

I just ran across a christening in Calverton where the father was Joseph Smith and the mother was Sarah Roe ... I'm sure they had a brother-in-law John Doe somewhere, too.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 18 Nov 2010 22:18

Just talking to myself now. ;)

A theory?

1841

Name: Solomon Cooper (definitely says Solomon)
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1821
Where born: Nottinghamshire, England
Occupation: Ag Lab

Civil Parish: Calverton
County/Island: Nottinghamshire

Thomas Pepper 40 - farmre
Anne Pepper 35
Elizabeth Pepper 7
Samuel Shelton 20
Solomon Cooper 20
Ann Wood 19


He wasn't born, doesn't marry or die, and isn't in any other census.

Solomon Henson and Solomon Meads, baptisms in batch C046381, are in the censuses independently.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 19 Nov 2010 17:32

As have several other people, I've had a PM from another member with a suggestion for my Reuben in 1841.

That Reuben is in Scotland. Now, I know better than to dismiss that -- it was another member here finding a grx3 grfather of mine marrying in Scotland in 1839, when he was from long Wiltshire roots and lived and died in Wiltshire as far as I knew (although I have recently found his marriage in Bristol), that cracked the case on where he was in 1841. I'd been searching in England ...

I've added that info to my ordinary thread. I think he's probably ruled out, but you never know.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 21 Nov 2010 01:09

It is indeed interesting, as has been noted in other threads on this board, that most queries here seem to be from old hands. I'm one.

I *have* had help on the boards at GR from people who found things I didn't -- amazing though that may seem. ;) The most memorable one is the other member who found that Wiltshire grx3 grfather of mine marrying in Scotland. I would not likely have run across that in a month of Sundays. I was stuck in England.

So I thought it reasonable to ask about Reuben (since I seemed to have bored people silly in my other thread on it).

One reason I thought this particularly was because I do not pay for access to FMP, and I'd wondered whether maybe those with access to those records might turn something up that was hiding from me because of some bizarre transcription error, or just omission, at the site I do use.

But I guess I'm stuck with this uncracked nut.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 22 Nov 2010 02:02

The info offered in reply in this thread is actually from Ancestry.

Can I assume that one or more of the advisors has checked the 1841 on FMP for Reuben Cooper (or a variant thereof) born c1825, in or near Calverton, Notts? That's kind of what I was hoping for.

Thanks.


Edit, Monday the 22nd.

One of the usual suspects in the wide TTF team has PMed me a list of all Reubens of the rightish age in Notts in 1841. (What about the Rubins and Ruebens and Rubens, I ask??)

So I have that now -- many I've tracked down already, some I'm not sure -- and I'll poke away at it.