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Girl on knee?

Births Jun 1925
Williams Florence J Moscrop Thanet 2a 1795

Rose

Both Winnie and Maisie and their families lived in Ramsgate, Kent. Maisie had four kids and Winnie had three. All the cousins played together until Maisie and her family left Ramsgate around 1935 (for Richmond, Surrey I believe). When Rose died I believe she was laid out in Maisie's house before the funeral. When Maisie's son Len was born their address was 9 Nixon Ave (Ramsgate) and the bricks of that house look similar to those behind the people in the photo.

By the way - Rose's husband Charles went into the army just before their second child Harry was born (Winnie's brother) stating he was not married!! He was discharged in 1912 - possibility he went to prison and Rose's marriage was annulled as she married my grandfather 3 weeks later. Have not yet found a death certificate but my mother gave me to understand no questions should be asked. I notice on Winnie's marriage certificate 24 Feb 1923 she states her father is deceased.

Just a last note - Maisie never forgave her mother for not marrying Andrew - mother told me she could have! After 1901 census and before 1911 (Annie working in London bar) presumeably she would have lived with Rose and her children - mostly addresses in Teddington.

AND I'VE FOUND THE BOX ..........................

So did Alice Rose marry Harry James? Would help to know so we can look for her death.

Marriages Sep 1912
James Harry B Moscrop Epsom 2a 103
Moscrop Alice R James Epsom 2a 103

Rose

if Alice Rose married Harry James in 1912, one might suspect that baby Harry in 1911 was really his child ...

Charles Peter Moscrop was really Charles Henry P Moscrop born 1874 reg in Kingston district (covers Teddington)

a marriage would not ordinarily be annulled simply because someone was convicted of a crime

Rose remarried under the name Moscrop? which would be unusual if her first marriage was void (say for bigamy) or somehow annulled

could this be his pension record? no other Charles Moscrop birth was registered between 1872 and 1884

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V5CR-RN6

Harry:

Births Sep 1867 (>99%)
James Harry Beaumont Croydon 2a 222

Certainly died in the correct area:

Deaths Mar 1956 (>99%)
James Harry B 88 Thanet 5b 1073

Rose

Does this mean anything?

http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.britisles.england.sry.general/7666/mb.ashx

Rose

Births Sep 1918 (>99%)
JAMES Arthur L G M Edlin Chertsey 2a 83

Rose

Have you looked in 'search all member trees'...as suggested some time ago on this thread.

Is this the death you referred to?

Deaths Mar 1932 (>99%)
Moscrop Alice 57 W.Ham 4a 359

If so, why no reference to a second forename?

Rose couldn't legally have married Andrew if her husband was alive............in spite of calling herself a widow in 1911

Harry George Moscrop b.SurbitonSy(Dec1900Kingston2a363)
Charles Henry Peter Moscrop signed army papers on 7th September 1900 leaving a pregnant Rose!
1901 census she is living at 26 Portman Road Kingston Sy with baby Harry, Winnie is with grandparents 32 Alfred Rd.
Not sure when Andrew and Rose live together but they have a son of their own Hilton Leonard DINGWELL who died on 1st January 1902 at 5 Rose Cottages, Railway Rd, Teddington aged only 6 weeks (Hilton an Edlin family name) then Maisie was born 1st January 1903.
After Charles was discharged from army my mother said Rose COULD HAVE married Andrew. No idea what the legalities of all this was aside from thinking he died but she chose to marry Harry Beaumont James my grandgather instead.
Alice Rose James-Holmes (Harry and Rose used HOLMES from my grandfather's family) died 30 January1932 in Chislet near Canterbury and was buried in Ramsgate where her two daughters were living.
The family, Harry, Rose, Maisie, Sybil (my mother) and George were living in Hemingford Grey after Rose's son Harry died in Teddington, so Maisie and Wal (Henry Walter Williams) were married in St Ives, Cambridgeshire on 6 August 1921. Maisie using the surname Moscrop!!!! and my grandfather signing as - wait for it!!! Beaumont Moscrop!!!
Rose had helped bring up Harry's many children (his wife had died in childbirth) and when they reached adulthood they would not help around the house so Harry and Rose left them the house whereupon the older children put one of the girls into care - not nice brothers and sisters! My mother seemed to think they were avoiding having to pay the fees of her care so they changed their surnames in particular to avoid detection. BUT when Rose died that daughter came to live with her father Harry and brought up my mother and her brother George.
When my mother died in 2005 I knew very little about the family - it has taken a few years of research to get this far.
Would still love to find Annie's family if she has one as Maisie's family should have some record of their English ancestry.

so here is Alice Rose's death, just so we are all a little clearer

Deaths Mar 1932
Holmes Alice R J 54 Blean 2a 1667
James-Holmes Alice R 54 Blean 2a 1667

I'm afraid I've found this thread incredibly confusing and I'm used to confusing families having a few myself! and not having all the known facts from the outset hasn't helped ...

one thing that would help is to refer to people by their proper names even though they went by their middle names, e.g. 'Alice Rose' rather than 'Rose', 'Alice Maisey' rather than 'Maisie (and by name rather than relationship e.g. not 'her mother' but 'her mother Alice Rose') to keep track of who is who in actual records

Annie Eva Dingwell born 1889 Kingston reg dist
daughter of Andrew Dingwell and Emily Geal

Emily Geal died before 1900, Andrew then partnered after 1900 with Alice Rose Edlin
Alice Rose Edlin was married to Charles (Henry) Peter Moscrop at the time

Alice Rose Edlin and husband Charles Moscrop had son Harry George Moscrop 1900 after Charles enrolled in the army

Alice Rose Edlin and Andrew Dingwell had daughter Alice Maisey Dingwell 1903 Kingston reg dist
- Annie Eva Dingwell was the older half-sister of Alice Maisey Dingwell, both daughters of Andrew Dingwell with different mothers
- Annie Eva Dingwell was the older step-sister of Harry George Moscrop, the son of Alice Maisey's mother and her first husband

Alice Rose Edlin Moscrop
- step-mother of Annie Eva Dingwell
- mother of Harry George Moscrop with Charles Moscrop
- mother of Alice Maisey Dingwell with Andrew Dingwell
married Harry Beaumont James (1867) in 1913
Harry Beaumont James had many children from a previous marriage

We don't know what became of Charles Moscrop that she was able to marry again
She could have married Andrew Dingwell (that is, was free to marry him) sometime 1900-1910, by family stories.

Charles Moscrop was not present with the family in 1911, was discharged from the military in 1912, and is not seen after that.

Alice Maisey Dingwell's family in Canada is looking for any descendants of Annie Eva Dingwell but no sure trace of her after 1911 has been found


If I have got anything wrong in there let me know and I will fix it!! :-)

I was probably the only one confused but maybe it will be useful

Meanwhile Stella did you look at the Ancestry discussion post that Rose linked to, from a descendant of Harry Beaumont James and his first wife? or perhaps you are in touch with that family, obviously they do not know anything of Annie Eva Dingwell in any case of course.


by the way given the date when Charles Moscrop enrolled in the military it is likely that he was in the Anglo-Boer War but he was not in the Imperial Yeomanry (checked names at http://www.britishmedals.us/files/iym.htm ...there is one Moscrop, Henry Joseph, but he was likely born 1878 Staines and died 1949 Middlesex) ... oops sorry, you have his military records of course ... at FMP:
Moscrop Charles 7975 The Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own) (2nd Anglo-Boer War)
MOSCROP Charles dob 1877 at Kingston on Thames, Surrey WO97 Chelsea

Yes - you have it right. And Charles Moscrop's army record. Henry Joseph Moscrop was his cousin.
Harry B James and his first wife Leaneade (nee Mugridge b.1868) had 12 children if I count correctly and I met the granddaughter of one of the children at a funeral. I am sure they would contact me if they needed any details on Harry B James 2nd wife (Alice Rose Moscrop).
Annie Eva Dingwell in my photo is very dark haired as is her daughter (which I am assuming!)
Thank you everyone for info.

Have you thought whether it is likely that she would have had a child at the age of approx 40?

I realise that it is biologically possible, but.....................

do you have Annie Eva Dingwell's exact date of birth?

as you probably know, the deaths index after 1969 includes date of birth (not age as before), which is of course as correct as the person who reported it knew it

if she lived to the age of 80, and died in England/Wales, her death might be identified that way, by first name only and date of birth

that accounts for women who took a partner's name without marriage, or are difficult to trace because of multiple marriages

so far I can find no unaccounted for Annie Eva with a birthdate in the right quarter (Annie Eva Dingwell was born late 1889) but if she fiddled with her name and was called Eva Annie, there are more candidates

getting her birth cert would give you the info needed to do that search

just as an example

Name: Annie Eva Paynter
Birth Date: 7 Dec 1889 > right quarter of birth
Date of Registration: Jun 1969
Age at Death: 79
Registration district: St Pancras
Inferred County: London
Volume: 5d
Page: 2383

could be this birth, very common for the informant to get the birthday right but the year wrong for a person born that long before, and this person doesn't seem to have married:

Births Dec 1888
PAYNTER Annie Eva Luton 3b 425

... in 1911 she was a typist in Camberwell; there were no possible Annie E to Paynter marriages to account for that name

so she is likely accounted for by the 1888 birth but the question is open

just an idea of the finding and ruling out/in that might be done with a dob, but again that is dependent on her living past 1969 and dying in England/Wales.

Have today received the death certificate of Andrew Dingwell (died 2 July 1942). His daughter registered the death - Annie Eva BLACKMORE living in Bristol. Cannot find a marriage of a Dingwell to a Blackmore.
There is a death that could connect - Annie Eva Blackmore - Dec 1953 aged 64yrs, Fulham 5c 403.
I will search trees for 'Blackmore'.
Cheers everyone

bingo, looks like that's dunnit

note though that the death in 1953 is Annie 'E' Blackmore

there are marriages that could account for the name

Annie E Jeffries 1919 Brentford
Annie E Swannell 1931 Camberwell born 1891 Camberwell probably
Annie E Allen 1916 Exeter
Annie E Hardy 1930 Norfolk
Annie E Tooth 1935 Taunton


looking at Blackmore deaths in Fulham of men about the age to be a spouse

Sydney M Blackmore born c1886 died 1948
Alfred Blackmore born c1887 died 1920
Albert A Blackmore born c1884 died 1924

there are only two marriages for a Sydney M Blackmore
1913 Newton Abbot to Winifred
(the Sydney Martin born 1884 Newton Abbot died in infancy)
1947 Tiverton to Maggie (Sydney M born 1917 St Thomas probably)

the death in Fulham is the only other one for the name
he is probably Sydney Melvin born 1885 Fulham
1911 he is in Fulham, a bus driver

I tend to think the Annie E Blackmore who died in Fulham was Annie E Swannell married to Albert C Blackmore


I wonder whether you have considered the suggestion that you get her birth certificate for her full date of birth, and what I explained about using it to search for a death

If you have an address for her in Bristol you could try electoral rolls from before and after the war to see if she were there.

Rose

British phone books at Ancestry show a Robert Blackmore in Bath 1940-44

Name: Robert Blackmore
Birth Date: 11 Aug 1889
Date of Registration: Mar 1979
Age at Death: 89
Registration district: Bath
Inferred County: Avon
Volume: 22
Page: 0242

Births Sep 1889
Blackmore Robert Keynsham 5c 637


in 1942 the other Blackmores in the telephone directory for the Bath exchange are

F.J., Builder
Gilbert J
Blackmore & Langdon, Twerton Hill nursery

Robert Blackmore was at 2 Rosslyn Road - ?

in 1911 the one born 1889 is in Newton St Loe, Keynsham reg dist, a builder's clerk, with his mother Mary

I would guess that he married in 1929 in Keynsham reg dist
3 children to that marriage 1930-1933 in Bath
daughters 1930 and 1932
can't identify birth or death of wife

is there any chance do you suppose that Annie Eva Dingwell had decided to call herself
Evelyn SCM De Vere ?? :-S

(yes, it is uncommon for a woman to have 3 children in her early 40s, but has never been unheard of)

no, aha, the wife's death

Name: Eveline S G M Blackmore
Birth Date: abt 1898
Date of Registration: Sep 1934
Age at Death: 36
Registration district: Bath
Inferred County: Somerset
Volume: 5c
Page: 552

perhaps

Births Sep 1897
Tipton Eveline St Clare Bedminster 5c 596

so the child in the photo could have been a stepchild of Annie Eva, who had partnered with Robert Blackmore?

although if the child was about 5 and the photo was 1932 that would not work (I was thinking 1935) ... she would not have been with Robert yet ... so perhaps Annie Eva had a child of her own we just haven't identified yet - if the child was born abt 1927 Annie Eva was by no means too old for the job then, in her late 30s

is it telling at all that she has no husband in the photo or was it a group of immediate family only?


well it's a theory :-)

I believe this is probably the older daughter of Robert

Name: Jean Mary Toy
Birth Date: 21 May 1932
Date of Registration: May 2002
Age at Death: 70
Registration district: Lancaster
Inferred County: Lancashire
Register Number: C9C
District and Subdistrict: 5872C
Entry Number: 126

and her husband's 2013 ER listing

http://www.192.com/atoz/people/toy/peter/la2/2080690083/

and he is in the current phone book

someone related to Robert Blackmore 1889's wife has Robert in his tree here at genesreunited