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Hibbs - Hind

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Oakash

Oakash Report 25 Apr 2014 19:10

Trying to establish parentage of my mother Betty Hibbs (also known as Elizabeth Hibbs) My mothers married name is Parker (in 1946 at Southend on sea)
Betty Hibbs was born Apr 1923. I can only find one entry in birth records, a birth under the mothers surname of Hind, in Dudley. I cannot find another Betty?
So my Betty may have been adopted(?) as she was brought up as the daughter of Harry Hibbs and Elizabeth Hibbs (Cassam), who lived in Neasdon/Willesden area of London in 1923 and from194? - 195? at Southend on sea, and from 1953 to 1970 in Hayes(middlesex).
Is there anyone who can help me establish if the Dudley birth is my mother or not?
If it is my mother are there any details of her birth mother's family you would be willing to share?
Thanks in advance for any input you can give to me.

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it Report 25 Apr 2014 19:40

Well Harry and Elizabeth married in 1921
Marriages Dec 1921
Hibbs Harry Cassam Willesden 3a 612

patchem

patchem Report 25 Apr 2014 20:15

If your mother was adopted she could have had any name at birth.

There was no legal adoption until 1926.

A bit strange to 'adopt' from Dudley to Willesden.

Have you considered she was a niece or other relation of Harry and Elizabeth?

I cannot see any births for children of Harry and Elizabeth, but they only waited 2 years after marriage if they did adopt Betty.

Added:
Have you death dates for Harry and Elizabeth - cannot see definite births for them.

patchem

patchem Report 25 Apr 2014 20:26

You have Elizabeth Cassam as born 1891 in your tree at Shoreham, Kent.

Have you got her birth information, please?

Added:
Is this her?
Births Jun 1891
Cassom Elizabeth Jane Sevenoaks 2a 667

Elizabeth Jane Hibbs
Birth Date: 28 Mar 1891
Date of Registration: May 1985
Age at Death: 94
Registration district: Chichester
Inferred County: Sussex
Volume: 18
Page: 1611

patchem

patchem Report 25 Apr 2014 20:50

This looks like Elizabeth in 1901, so she has plenty of siblings:
1901 England Census
Elizabeth J Cassan Age: 10 Estimated birth year: abt 1891
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Father: Elisha A Cassan
Mother: Rhoda Cassan
Birth Place: Oxford, Oxfordshire, England (NO, IT IS OTFORD, KENT)
Civil Parish: Willesden
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Registration district: Hendon Sub-registration district: Willesden
ED, institution, or vessel: 47 Piece: 1222 Folio: 85 Page Number: 48 Household schedule number: 362
Elisha A Cassan 38
Rhoda Cassan 32
Albert J Cassan 13
Alice R Cassan 10
Elizabeth J Cassan 10
Florence G Cassan 9
Bertha Cassan 7
Jack Cassan 5
Joseph Cassan 3
Rhoda Cassan 9 Months
Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 1222; Folio: 85; Page: 48.

Oakash

Oakash Report 25 Apr 2014 21:00

Firstly thanks for the quick responses.
Yes it is the correct Elizabeth Cassam, born in Shoreham near Sevenoaks.
Harry born 1892 Pokesdown, Bournemouth.
Death dates for Harry is 1972 Chichester and Elizabeth 1985 Chichester.

Betty always celebrated 9th April as her birthday.

Yes Dudley to London was a longshot but without any other evidence it was worth trying. All of Betty's generation in family now deceased and I have made contact with a couple of 2nd(?) cousins in USA, who have asked around but no one can help.

I will keep looking for answers though, but not sure what to do next.
Kind regards

JoonieCloonie

JoonieCloonie Report 25 Apr 2014 22:41

Oakash, just for our info, this is your mum's death record?

Name: Betty Elizabeth Parker
Birth Date: 9 Apr 1923
Date of Registration: Jun 2005
Age at Death: 82
Registration district: Chichester

do you have your parents' marriage certificate, and does she name Harry Hibbs as her father?

she was Betty E when she married

Marriages Mar 1946
Hibbs Betty E - Parker - Southend 4a 1647

so perhaps her name at birth was in fact Betty Elizabeth?

... but perhaps if she was adopted, her name was already Betty and the parents added the 'Elizabeth' after the mother ...

are there any family photos of Betty with her parents as a baby or toddler?

JoonieCloonie

JoonieCloonie Report 25 Apr 2014 23:24

Births Jun 1892
Hibbs Harry Christchurch 2b 639

In 1911 Harry is a boarder

where is he in 1901? can't find him ...

thinking that Betty could have been the child of a sister or brother of Harry as well, but can't find any without finding him in censuses with them :-)

a child named Hibbs with mother Hibbs was born in Chichester in June quarter 1923 ... ?

but there is no matching marriage or death

could that have been a child of a sister of Harry?

patchem

patchem Report 25 Apr 2014 23:41

For ref:
1901 England Census
Henry Hibbs Age: 10 Estimated birth year: abt 1891
Relation to Head: Son Gender: Male
Father: James Hibbs
Mother: Emiline Hibbs
Birth Place: Pokesderon, Hampshire, England
Civil Parish: Fulham Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew
County/Island: London Country: England registration district: Fulham
Sub-registration district: South Fulham
ED, institution, or vessel: 23
Piece: 68 Folio: 110 Page Number: 11 Household schedule number: 60
James Hibbs 45
Emiline Hibbs 35
Kate Hibbs 16
William G Hibbs 14
Lilian Hibbs 12
Henry Hibbs 10
Milly W Hibbs 5
Adela G Brockway 4
Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 68; Folio: 110; Page: 11.

JoonieCloonie

JoonieCloonie Report 25 Apr 2014 23:58

oh headsmack

and of course in 1911 they've blown to the winds

Lilian is a visitor in Pimlico, a domestic servant visiting Hickmans

the rest I don't know

but there were certainly sisters in the family

can't find 'Milly' even by her real name

Births Mar 1896
Hibbs Nellie Winifred Fulham 1a 341

... she died unmarried 1977 Fulham

2 members of genesreunited have Nellie in their trees, and also have Harry (as born 1891)
1 other member besides Oakash has Harry as 1892

Oakash

Oakash Report 26 Apr 2014 10:44

Thanks again for your help.

A child of a sibling to Harry or Elizabeth is a good idea, not thought of it in that way.
Yes I have mothers marriage cert and yes Harry is father which is why the adoption possibility has not previously been on my mind.
I have mothers baptism certificate at Presbyterian church of England, Granville Road, Kilburn, london. I have contacted the church but they do not have any records from that time as they moved premises. Baptised Betty Elizabeth Hibbs on 2 Sept 1923.
I have just one photo of Harry, Elizabeth and Betty with Betty aged about 1 year and another aged about 3.
I will look to see if I can find more details through other trees as you have found a connection already.
There are now many possibilities so this will certainly keep me busy for some time.
If I have any success I will be pleased to share what i find.

Best wishes, Tony

JoonieCloonie

JoonieCloonie Report 26 Apr 2014 22:27

just an update since I'm not sure why I said I couldn't find Nellie Hibbs in 1911 (transcribed as 'Milly' in 1901)

Name: Nellie Winifred Hibbs
Age in 1911: 15
Estimated birth year: abt 1896
Relation to Head: Servant
Gender: Female
Birth Place: London, United Kingdom
Civil Parish: Chelsea
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 78 Kings Rd, Chelsea
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: GENERAL SERVANT DOMESTIC
Registration district: Chelsea

Nellie was the youngest Hibbs sister in 1901 and would have been about 28 in 1923

Lilian Mary Hibbs 1899 ... there is no obvious marriage or death for her ... the Lilian M who married Squibb had dob 9 March 1999 on her death record 1975 Weymouth so would be Lilian May born Keynsham 1st quarter 1899 probably

your mum was baptised 5 months after her birth which could be a little long ... it was not unheard of for a child informally adopted (before there was legal adoption) to be baptised as the child of the adoptive parents, just something to keep in mind


now here is one I wonder about, whether she could be the last child

Births Mar 1902
HIBBS Alice Alexandra Fulham 1a 384

possibly the mother's death with age misrecorded? (she was 35 in 1901 census)

Deaths Mar 1902
Hibbs Emmeline 25 Fulham 1a 296

1911

Name: Alice Hibbs
Age in 1911: 8
Estimated birth year: abt 1903
Relation to Head: Inmate
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Ham (it clearly says Fulham)
Civil Parish: Hammersmith
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: St Marys Orphanage, 41 Brook Green Road, Hammersmith
Occupation: SCHOOL
Registration district: Fulham

this could be her marriage

Marriages Jun 1936
Cripps Joseph E Hibbs Bournemouth 2b 1887
Hibbs Alice A Cripps Bournemouth 2b 1887

although perhaps more likely the Alice Ada born 1906 Southampton
no Alice Cripps death that matches either one

no one has this Alice in their tree here


also for info I think Emmeline was a second wife

Marriages Mar 1894 ?
Goodger Emma Alice Chelsea 1a 577
Hibbs James Charles Chelsea 1a 577

1891 census in Christchurch is

James Hibbs 55
Mary Ann Hibbs 30
Samuel James Hibbs 9
Oliver Harriett Hibbs 6
Kate Hibbs 5
William George Hibbs 3
Mary Lillian Hibbs 1 (which puts a different slant on Lilian M)

someone corrected Oliver to Olive at Ancestry in 2013 so it could be worth enquiring ... and the same 2 people as before have her in their genesreunited trees

so this is likely Lilian after all

Births Dec 1889
Hibbs Mary Lilian Christchurch 2b 653

Marriages Sep 1926
Brown William G Hibbs Willesden 3a 650
Hibbs Mary L Brown Willesden 3a 650
(no children to marriage)
(likely death 1972 Rochford)


I think I would still be quite curious about the 1923 Chichester birth :-)

Oakash

Oakash Report 27 Apr 2014 11:37

I now have lots to do!

Can't thank you enough for your kind support and suggestions.

Best wishes
Tony

Oakash

Oakash Report 12 Sep 2014 17:59

Dear responders,
Still working through your previous responses, but I have now obtained the Betty Hibbs birth cert for the Dudley birth and find that it occurred on 4th April 1923 with mother Mary Ann Hibbs, (formally Hind) and father Henry Hibbs. I can't find a marriage for Henry Hibbs and Mary Ann Hind?

My grandfather had a brother called Henry born in 1891 so how can I establish if this is the same Henry? My Harry and Henry's parents were James Hibbs and Mary Ann Elizabeth Hibbs, (formerly Green).

Any suggestions/input will be gratefully received!

Kay????

Kay???? Report 12 Sep 2014 19:08

1905 in Walsall a marriage of Henry Hibbs and Mary Ann HINES.

Oakash

Oakash Report 13 Sep 2014 12:02

Hi Kay

My Henry was born 1891 so unlikely it was him as he would have been just 14 in 1905.

Good spot Hibbs/Hines I will see where it takes me, but Henry Hibbs appears to be a popular name unfortunately!

Thanks
Tony

Flip

Flip Report 14 Sep 2014 15:44

Tony, you say you have your mother christening certificate - did it give a date of birth? I'm just wondering if the Betty's birth you have obtained is the wrong one - dob is close but not right. There also appear to be other Hibbs/Hind children born in the west midlands area who could be that Betty's siblings, and you can't rule out the possibility their mother was a widow when she married - or even the couple married outside England/Wales.

If your mother was adopted (albiet unofficially) then her registered name could have been anything.

It is unusual, though not unheard of, for a couple to adopt so early in their marriage - it would lead me to wonder if her mother had a miscarriage and knew she couldn't have more children. This happened to my great aunt within a year of her marriage - back in the 1920s - there had been complications during her first pregnancy.

Kay????

Kay???? Report 14 Sep 2014 16:49


Just because the birth isnt indexed doesnt mean there isnt a registration as many events have been missed off when they were transfered from the GRO ledgers especially more so when the same name is listed above or below.,,,,,,,,erros have happened.

Maybe contacting the GRO can throw light on it.?

Oakash

Oakash Report 15 Sep 2014 11:37

hi Flip
Christening certificate does not show birth details unfortunately.

There is only this one Betty Hibbs on computer records so maybe just a longshot.

How did you go about finding the other Hibbs/Hind children - not sure what process to follow to do this? Especially as I couldn't find a Hibbs/Hind marriage?

hi Kay

I will look at GRO website to see how they deal with enquiries about possible errors

Thank you to both.
Tony

JoonieCloonie

JoonieCloonie Report 15 Sep 2014 15:17

just wondering again

you have family deaths in Chichester

I mentioned this birth earlier:

a child named Hibbs with mother Hibbs was born in Chichester in June quarter 1923
but there is no matching marriage or death
could that have been a child of a sister of Harry?

have you not considered investigating that birth?
a June quarter registration would match a 9 April birth

there were 3 Hibbs girls born in Chichester reg dist of an age to have a child in 1923
but 2 married in Brighton and one in Steyning so the family seems to have relocated ... yes, in 1911 they are living in Brighton ... so it seems unlikely that the 1923 birth belongs to that family

a birth in Chichester just seems more logical to me than a birth in Dudley .......