Find Living Relatives

If all you have is the date, place, and name at birth of a person and the birth mother's
maiden name is it possible to find out if the birth mother either married or had more children? The wild card is that both women had the same very common given and
surnames.
However, I have been told by the GRO that the younger of the 2 women was the only girl born on her dob with that given name.
Any help or suggestions will be appreciated.
Sincerely
Joe Addison
Canada

Have you actually bought the birth cert for its info

John, when you say "both women" and "the two women", who is the second woman you are talking about? That part of your message doesn't make any sense to an outsider. :-)

What you were told by the GRO, was that about the child of the birth mother, or about the birth mother? That is, *who* was the only girl born on her dob with the particular given name? The birth mother? So you know the birth mother's dob ... she was your grandmother ...? (if her possible child would be your aunt)

Still not understanding how a different woman comes into the picture. Ah, because the other woman could have been the mother of the child in question?

As Shirley says, why not get the birth certificate of the child and see whether it gives any information about the birth mother that would help you tell? An age, address or occupation, for instance.

Or maybe you have that and that's where the confusion arises, because of the possibility of the mother being the other person. We just can't tell.


Would the birth mother (and the other woman) likely be deceased at present?

If you know her full name and exact date of birth, you could search the deaths index for a matching death, even without knowing her surname at death.

Let's say her name was Jane Elizabeth Smith and she was born on 1 January 1920. You search for the death of any Jane Elizabeth born on that date.

(After 1969, full names and birth dates are shown in the deaths index.)

If you find a death that could be a match, then you can search for a marriage to match the surname.

Again, let's say there is a death of a Jane Elizabeth Brown who was born on 1 January 1920. You search for a marriage of a Jane E to a Brown after the birth of the child you are interested in.

This is not certain to yield results, even if the person is deceased. For example, the surname at death could be a second married surname, or the surname of a partner a woman was not married to.


Unfortunately, your message sounds like "Mr Green drove a Volkswagen, Mr Black did not live in a caravan, who had a giraffe for a pet?" to an outsider. There is something missing and I for one can't tell what the question is, without it!

Okay ... I actually found your first message about your situation.

but that has confused me more ...

possibly that first message was by your parent rather than you?

and the question is whether your parent's mother had another child?

It seems you did have the address and occupation, so you have the birth certificate of the adopted child in question ...

That earlier post did have personal info (names and dates) in it, so if you are comfortable giving them, it would be very much easier for others to help with your question.

for example, to search the 1939 register for info
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-Records/1939-register
(I can't because I don't have a current subscription)

there are in fact an amazing number of people with the birth mother's name born in a likely 10-year range, living in Liverpool! If you have the birth mother's DOB, you might be able to identify her. Even on a free search, you might find useful info -- that register was updated to show married surnames. (In the results list, the woman's birth surname is shown in parentheses, even if she was not married at the time the record was created.)

Also, in your tree(s) here, the person in question is shown only under the adopted surname, not the birth surname. If anyone in the birth family were to search for the person, they would not know the adopted surname to search for. It would be wise to add the person to your tree under the birth surname. All you need to do is enter the child under the birth surname as an entirely different child of the same parent.

There are people who do have the birth name in their trees, but as you say it's a common name and they are likely to be other people with the same name, born the same year in the same place (there were about nine).

From what I can tell in free searches of the 1939 register, the woman in question didn't live on the street in question in 1939, unfortunately.

In 1939 she may not have lived in Liverpool - so you can search that register by her name and date of birth. That should really allow you to identify her, and that way you would be able to get the names of her parents and possibly siblings.

If you do want to share the personal info, there are lots of people here with access to the 1939 register.

If you don't, one of those people would do it by private message for you, I'm sure.

If you want to tell me by private message, I can see what I can find too.

Hi,
Hopefully I can clarify the situation. I was born in Liverpool in July,1946. My birth mother was a 16 yr. old at the time of my birth. I was adopted privately within 2 weeks of my birth. My birth mother was Margaret Hughes who was born in Aug.,1929. Yes I have her birth certificate. Her birth certificate shows that her mother; also Margaret Hughes, resided at 16 Oban Road at the time of the birth. There is no father named on my birth mother's birth certificate.
I am in contact with and in 2013 met Margaret's ( my birth mother)5 children with 2 husbands. They maintain that they have no knowledge of their Mum's family.
At the time of my birth ( and possibly as far back as 1939} my birth mother was living with a family in Liverpool. This family had a 6-7 year old daughter when I was born. I have met her and her husband (also in 2013). She recalls my birth mother's mother ( the older Margaret Hughes) coming to visit around the time of my birth. She
had a young girl with her who my source believes was my birth mother's younger sister. She recalls the name Constance or Connie as being this girl's name. This the person that I am actually hoping to find as she is more likely to be alive than the older Margaret Hughes. The GRO says that because Margaret Hughes is a common name it is impossible to trace her, or to tell if there were any more children,
without more information.
I hope this helps.
Joe Addison
Canada

Hi again.
My birth mother is deceased and I also have death certificate and knowledge of her 2 marriages, There is no information in any of that that sheds any light on who I am searching for
Thx
Joe

You don't give the name of the family your mother lived with- but I note from an earlier post that you were born at 24 Dingle Lane- this is that address in 1939:

Sloan Household 24 (Dingle Lane) , Liverpool C.B., Lancashire, England
Joseph J Sloan 19 Dec 1916 Male Ships Boiler Scaler Hea W Married
Catherine Sloan 14 Jun 1908 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
Edith Baker 19 Aug 1877 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Widowed
One Closed record
----------------------------------------------------------

I'm still a bit confused- but saw the address your mother was born at and didn't know if this was any help:?


1939 register:
Hughes Household (3 People) 16 Oban Road , Liverpool C.B., Lancashire, England

William Hughes 17 Aug 1861 Male Master Mariner Retired Widowed
Eveline Hughes 06 Mar 1895 Female Unpaid Domestic Services Single
Doris Hughes 17 Jul 1906 Female Housekeeper Single

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
16 Oban Road Anfield Liverpool, Walton on the Hill, Lancashire, England

Margaret Hughes Head Married Female - 44 1867 Widnes Lancashire
Arthur Hughes Son Single Male Clerk 17 1894 Liverpool Lancashire
Eveline Hughes Daughter Single Female - 16 1895 Liverpool Lancashire
Margaret Hughes Daughter - Female School 14 1897 Liverpool Lancashire
May Hughes Daughter - Female School 10 1901 Liverpool Lancashire
Doris Hughes Daughter - Female - 4 1907 Liverpool Lancashire
Horatio Hughes Son - Male - 2 1909 Liverpool Lancashire

Just so I can get this straight- the c1897 Margaret (from the 1911 above) had a daughter Margaret in 1929 and possibly a younger daughter Constance/ Connie.

And it is Constance you are trying to trace?

Do you have Margaret senior's birth certificate for the exact date of birth- this could help trace her (and other possible children) in 1939?

HUGHES, MARGARET (Mother's maiden name: COOMBES)
GRO Reference: 1896 D Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 353

Have you considered this:

Margaret senior has daughter, Margaret in 1929 (we know illegitimate as no father is listed on her birth certificate).

Margaret senior later marries to Mr Appleton:

First name(s) MARGARET
Last name HUGHES
Marriage quarter 2
Marriage year 1932
Spouse: Percival Appleton
Spouse's last name Appleton
District West Derby
County Lancashire
Volume 8B Page 907

Margaret then has daughter, Constance Margaret in 1937:

First name(s) CONSTANCE M
Last name APPLETON
Birth year 1937
Birth quarter 2
Mother's last name Hughes
District Liverpool North
County Lancashire
Volume 8B Page 1032
---------------------------------------------------------------

This is them on the 1939 register:

Appleton Household (2 People) 13 Priory Road , Liverpool C.B., Lancashire, England
Margaret Appleton 04 Dec 1897 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
Margaret C (Constance) Roche (Appleton) 08 Apr 1937 Female Under School Age Single

(She was originally listed as Margaret C- but this was later written over to show name as Constance Margaret, as on birth). Roche surname indicates she later married to Mr Roche.
--------------------------------------------------------

Margaret's death (which matches year & quarter for birth)

First name(s) MARGARET
Last name APPLETON
Gender Female
Birth day 4
Birth month 12
Birth year 1896
Death quarter 4
Death year 1969
District Liverpool
County Lancashire
Volume 10D Page 1202

Constance didn't marry Frank Roche until 1991- although she took his name much earlier.

Daughter born to Constance and Frank in 1975 is still living and easy to trace.

Hi Austin
Thank you for the info. I had the Appleton connection as a possibility but do not have the depth of information that you have. The GRO has told me that I would need to provide the elder Margaret's dob to trace her as there were too many with that name.
I lucked out with my birth mother as she apparently was the only Margaret Hughes born on August 22, 1929 in the UK.
Regarding her mother, I had always assumed that she was a younger girl when she gave birth to my birth mother. Would it have been common for a single mother to raise a child alone at that period in time? One other assumption I hold is that her mother marrying and my birth mother not getting along with her stepfather or vice versa is the reason that she was living with another family.
Again, I thank you for the help and the information.
Thanks
Joe

Joe, if you are certain of the connection to Oban Road, then I am pretty certain this is the correct birth for Margaret Senior and that it will give her birth date as 4th December 1896:

HUGHES, MARGARET (Mother's maiden name: COOMBES)
GRO Reference: 1896 D Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 353

All her siblings at Oban Road were born with the same mother's maiden name.

I think it likely that your mother, Margaret, lived with another family due to her mother marrying- this was not uncommon. However, there could be many reasons.

You say your birth mother Margaret has now passed away- do you have her on the 1939 register?

Margaret senior's father:

Liverpool Daily Post - Friday 10 May 1940

DEATHS:
HUGHES - May 8 in Hospital age 78 years. WILLIAM, the devoted husband of the late Margaret Hughes, 16 Oban Road, Anfield. Interrment at Anfield Cemetery tomorrow (Saturday) at 11am. (Friends, please accept this- the only- intimation).
-----------------------------------------------------

England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations)

HUGHES Wiliiam of 16 Oban Road, Anfield Liverpool died 8 May 1940 at 107 Rice Lane, Liverpool Administration Liverpool 1 July to Arthur Hughes carrier. Effects £1430 10s

I'm glad I sent you that message to suggest you return to your thread, Joe :-)

This was the previous thread I had found and AustinQ has seen, but I wanted to be circumspect about because Joe had not named names etc. this time:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/343017

Hi Austin,
I believe that I have the address for the daughter of Constance. I
drafted a letter to her last night and the whole while I felt something wasn't right. If
indeed Constance was my birth mother's sister her middle name Margaret is the same as my birth mother's name. I guess this is possible but probably not likely.
I suppose it is possible that Margaret and Constance are cousins or despite the closeness in age, Aunt and niece. As an example, our son is 29 days older than his oldest nephew.
There is definitely a connection to 16 Oban Road as that address shows on Margaret's birth certificate as the address of her mother. I may yet send the letter but omit the "sister" reference.
Again, I do thank you for your help and suggestions.
Joe

Joe- The thought about Constance middle name being Margaret did cross my mind too- however, I still think it likely they are sisters.

Just to make a point that it happens- My brother's children have the middle name of their older sibling. eg First child is Thomas, second is Morgan Thomas, third is Andrew Morgan. It was to make the older child feel involved with the next (not sure it worked!)

Also remember that Constance was born to a different father, and he may have wanted the name included.- and, of course, Margaret was the name of Constance' mother and Grandmother.

However, I think you should put in the letter whatever you feel comfortable with- I really hope you get a reply and confirmation of the answers you're looking for.

(Remember to include your home address & e-mail address. Lots of people find it far easier to send a short e-mail, rather that compose a letter and have the bother of going to the post office to send it.)

Hi Austin
I used the facebook connection that you gave me. I have been messaging with her since yesterday. Although I am not 100% sure of the connection yet it certainly looks promising. She sent me a photo of her Nan and there is some similarities in appearance with my birth mother. That being said I have a friend who many people including 1 of my granddaughters have mistaken for me or think that we are brothers.
Either way, I thank you again.
Joe

Joe, would you just take K's name out of your previous post?

(you put her full name with initial and location -- AustinQ didn't do that for a reason)

We don't know that she wants her name included in a public discussion of rather sensitive matters involving her family ... or, perhaps even less appropriately, not, if it turns out not to be the same family ...

By the way, since I had replied to your post shortly after you wrote it and taken the time to look into it as far as I could with the available information, and then a week later sent you a private message letting you know you had replies with questions ... I had kind of expected an acknowledgement of that help of some sort ...