Military Chat

When the census was taken, were those in the British army in Ireland( Wellington Barracks Dublin for example) included in that Census?

Information about the Irish census here:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/help/about19011911census.html

"The 1901 census was taken on 31st March 1901. The 1911 census was taken on 2 April 1911...

Institutional and shipping forms

These forms contain details of the occupants of institutions of different kinds, for example, barracks, workhouses, hospitals, colleges, orphanages etc. In many cases the names of occupants are only given in initial form, ie Mary Smith is entered as M.S. These names are indexed by initial, and hopefully the information in the form itself (county of birth, occupation, marital status) will help to identify the person sought."

---------------------------------

So in short, yes, soldiers in the barracks were included (although sometimes they may just be recorded under initials)

Eg: this man was at Wellington Barracks with his family in 1911:

Residents of a house 36 in Wellington Barracks (Merchant's Quay, Dublin)

Glackan James 51 Male Head of Family RC born India. Barrack Warden Bk Dept A 8 Corps
Glackan Vera 11 Female Daughter RC
Glackan Margaret 47 Female Wife RC
Glackan Herbert 12 Male Son RC

Thank you for the information, I will try again to see if I can now find my relative. I know that by May of 1912 he was know longer in the army, but living in County louth, so i can only assume that he and the family were still living in the barracks at the time of the census as I cannot seem to find them at all in the general census of 1911.

Have you searched the UK census for 1911? He could have been serving abroad and I am pretty sure the 1911 has all Service personnel whether they were home or abroad.

Info on the 1911:

" Men on Royal Navy and merchant marine vessels were counted, ****as were the families of military personnel stationed overseas*****. Census takers even tried to approximate the homeless population."

Hi Petmar,

If you want to share info on the person/s you're looking for, maybe we can help??

Thanks all for your help, I am at a loss as I have tryed every site I can look into, so if you can help further,as I know many of you out there are well ahead of the game than I am, it would be appreciated. I have to start by adding that I do not have a great deal of info however I am willing to give you what I have at this time.
The person/ family that I am looking for is Patrick Smith born 1872, died 1924. On a birth certificate of a son, Patrick Dob 01.03.1907, it has Patrick (Senior) as a Private in what appears to be R.I.F which I take to be Royal Irish Fusiliers, he was based at Wellington Barracks Dublin. His wife's name was Elizabeth (Maiden name .Fitzpatrick).
At the time of the 1911Census they had 3 children Annie then Patrick and James born sometime in 1910.
In May 1912 another child came along (Anthony) and the family were living in Dromiskin Co Louth and he Patrick (Senior) was a farm labourer.
That's about all I have, so anything further you may find, will help me very much to "Join up the dots" so to speak. Yours Petmar

Is this birth for son Patrick?

Record source GRO Regimental Birth Indices (1761 to 1924)

First name(s) PATRICK J
Last name SMITH
Year range 1907
Place RATHMINES
Country IRELAND
Regiment Royal Irish Fusiliers <<<<<<<<<<
Volume 1633 Page 184
----------------------------------------------------

Nothing obvious at the moment, but wondered if this was connected (Was Annie Margaret Anne?):

Record source GRO Regimental Birth Indices (1761 to 1924)

First name(s) MARGARET A
Last name SMITH
Year range 1905
Place ARMAGH
Country IRELAND
Regiment Royal Irish Fusiliers <<<<<<<<<<<<
Volume 1633 Page 184
---------------------------------------------------------

Catholic Birth and Baptism Registers, 1763-1912

Name: Margaret Anne Smith
Birth Date: 13 Dec 1905
Birth Place: Military Barracks
Baptism Date: 17 Dec 1905
Baptism Place: Armagh, Armagh, Ireland
Father: Patrick Smith
Mother: Bessie Fitzpatrick <<<<<<<<<<<<<

I think this is them in Hampshire- Bessie is often used in place of Elizabeth, and I suspect the Annie you mention is the Margaret Anne whose birth I put above:

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Deadwater Bordon Camp Hampshire, Headley, Hampshire, England

Patrick Smith Head Married Male Labourer General 42 1869 Droghede Ireland
Bessie Smith Wife Married Female - 40 1871 E Mead
Margaret Anne Smith Daughter - Female - 5 1906 Bellorby
Patrick Smith Son - Male - 3 1908 Co Cavie Ireland
James Smith Son - Male - 1 1910

Married 10 years, 3 children (all living)

His military record is on Find My Past and gives lots of information:

British Army Service Records 1760-1915 Transcription

name(s) Patrick Smith
Service number 3667
Rank PRIVATE
Regiment Royal Irish Fusiliers (Princess Victoria's) - 87th & 89th Foot
Discharge corps Royal Irish Fusiliers
Discharge service number 3667
Document type Discharge
Series WO 97 - Chelsea Pensioners British Army service records 1760-1913
Archive The National Archives

Father: James of Trinity Street, Drogheda
Mother: Margaret
Elder Brother: Michael
Sisters: Rose, Margaret, Mary & Bridget

Married: Bessie Fitzpatrick, spinster, on 7th March 1905 at Belturbet, Co Monaghan, witnesses- Pat Fitzpatrick & Miss Houston.

Children:
Margaret Ann born 13th December 1905 Armagh (Baptised 16th Dec 1905 Armagh)
Patrick Joseph born 1st March 1907 Dublin (Baptised 24 Mar 1907 Dublin)

Religious denomination- Roman Catholic
Born- Saint Peter's parish, Drogheda, Louth

Attested: 9th September 1890 Drogheda (age 18 years, 6 months)
Discharged at own request after 18years service on 25th July 1909 Aldershot

Hello Austinq, Where do I start, First of all, may I and my wife thank you very much for all your research on our behalf, the relations you have successfully found are on my wifes side of the family and I have been floundering around for years to try and find this chap who is my wife's Grandfather.
Her father was Anthony who was born in May 1912 and lived to a great age of 92, unlike his father who lossed his life tragically in 1924, whilst out shooting rabbits, he fell over a hedgerow and the "Shotgun" he was carrying was cocked and it discharged and killed him instantly, and unfortunately it was Anthony and his brother James who found him. Anthony came to England in 1930 and lived with his elder sister "Annie" in South London and the rest is history. Patrick, and James came over made lives for themselves I believe in The Manchester area.
I will in due time send for the " Marriage certificate" of Patrick and Elizabeth ( Bessie) and the "Birth Certificates" of Annie and James.
Once again a big thank you from us both for all your efforts. Regards Petmar
'

This looks like Patrick's baptism:


Name:Patrick Smith
Gender:Male
Birth Date:7 Mar 1873
Birth Place:St Peters East Ward, Louth, Ireland
Baptism Place:St Peters East Ward, Louth, Ireland
Father:James Smith
Margaret Mc Cullagh

FHL Film Number:
255877

Ancestry has images for St Peter's, but the page for early March is missing.

A brother for Patrick:

Name: James Smith
Baptism Age: 0
Event Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 1871
Baptism Date: 12 Aug 1871
Baptism Place: St Peter's, Drogheda, Louth, Ireland
Parish Variants: Drogheda, St. Peter's, Drogheda
Diocese:Armagh
Father: James Smith
Mother: Margaret McCoulough

Patrick's parents' marriage:

Name: James Smith
Gender: Male
Event Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 16 May 1869
Marriage Place: St Peter's, Drogheda, Louth, Ireland
Parish Variants:Drogheda, St. Peter's, Drogheda
Diocese:Armagh
Spouse: Margaret McCulla

No father's names on image;Witnesses Edward O'Brien & Mary Ann Metcalf

This is the Civil Reg for the marriage:


Name: James Smith
Date of Registration: 1869
Registration district: Drogheda, Ireland
Volume: 7
Page Number: 453

You should be able to get the marriage cert from this info.



Name


Thomas C Curtis
Owen M'Keever
Mary Kelly
Margaret M'Kenna
James Smith
Kate M'Geough
Margaret M'Colla

There are a couple of possible baptisms for Elizabeth Fitzpatrick In Co Meath (1911 POB on image is Co Meath):


Name: Elizabeth Fitzpatrick
Baptism Age:0
Event Type:Baptism
Birth Date:1872
Baptism Date:13 Feb 1872
Baptism Place:Kells, Meath, Ireland
Diocese:Meath
Father: James Fitzpatrick
Mother: Bessy Begg


Name:
Elisabeth Fitzpatrick
[Elizabeth Fitzpatrick]
Baptism Age:0
Event Type:Baptism
Birth Date:1869
Baptism Date:28 Sep 1869
Baptism Place:Clonmellon, Meath and Westmeath, Ireland
Parish Variants:Killalon, Killan, Killon
Diocese:Meath
Father: John Fitzpatrick
Mother: Anne Plunkett

Nothing for a Bessie.

I would think the first one is probably the right one, given that Elizabeth was also known as Bessie but her marriage cert will give you her father's name.

Possible baptisms for the siblings of Patrick (as mentioned on military record)- variations on McCullagh/ McCullough & Smith/ Smyth

Name: Michael Smyth
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 24 Jul 1870
Birth Place: Louth, Ireland
Father: James Smyth
Mother: Margaret Mc Cullagh
--------------------------------

name(s) Rose Smyth
Baptism date 09 Apr 1874
Parish St. Peter's, Drogheda
Diocese Armagh
County Louth
Country Ireland
Father's name(s) James Smyth
Mother's name(s) Margaret McCullough
Repository National Library of Ireland
---------------------------------------

name(s) Margaret Smyth
Baptism date 03 Jul 1876
Parish St. Peter's, Drogheda
Diocese Armagh
County Louth
Father's name(s) James Smyth
Mother's name(s) Margaret McCullough
Repository National Library of Ireland
----------------------------------------

name(s) Mary Smyth
Baptism date 24 Mar 1879
Parish St. Peter's, Drogheda
Diocese Armagh
County Louth
Father's name(s) James Smyth
Mother's name(s) Margaret McCullough
Repository National Library of Ireland
--------------------------

Also these- perhaps children that died (as they're not mentioned on Patrick's service record)?

name(s) James Smith
Baptism date 12 Aug 1871
Parish St. Peter's, Drogheda
Diocese Armagh
County Louth
Father's name(s) James Smith
Mother's name(s) Margaret McCoulough
Repository National Library of Ireland
------------------------------

name(s) James Smyth
Baptism date 01 Oct 1877
Residence West Gate
Parish St. Peter's, Drogheda
Diocese Armagh
County Louth
Father's name(s) James Smyth
Mother's name(s) Margaret McCollough
Repository National Library of Ireland

Hello Again Austinq, Thanks again for your research, I am now in a position to start to make a proper "Tree" for my other half, I wonder if I can call upon your expertise again as the only missing link to this info is to find the "Death Certificate" for Elizabeth Smith (Bessie) and the only info I can give you is that I have every reason to believe that she passed away sometime in the late 1950s living in the Dundalk area.
As a matter of interest, I have been able to construct my side of the family far easier as most of my direct Ancestors lived in a small area in Kent and I have been able to get back to 1800 to my 4Times G. Grandfather, however it has now become more difficult as I need to get into "Parish Records" to find other info.
Once again, a thank you from us both for all your help and assistance. Yours Petmar

Sorry, I'm afraid I don't see anything definite for her online.

Is it possible that she remarried at some point after Patrick's death?

Is it possible she came to England and stayed with family in Manchester?

Perhaps someone else will find something positive?

thanks anyway for trying, as far as I am aware she did not Marry again , however all things are possible and I suppose it cannot be ruled out.
We have relatives in Ireland and I was told by them that they believed that she lived in Dundalk at somewhere called "Distillery Cottages" and my good lady remembers as a small child her Father ( Anthony) being vey sad and it was for the loss of his Mother. and that would have been in the late 1950s. Petmar

Petmar - you said you will in due time send for the m.certs.
You ought to know that the GRO for Ireland (I forget what they''re called now) will sell something cheaper, namely "uncertified" images of the original registers - it's even cheaper if you give the reference info. The only difference is for an official bmd.cert, someone digitally sticks the image on a certificate page, and a registrar says this is a true copy of the original entry and signs it.

I exaggerated when I said "the only difference" - there is also a legal difference, and uncertified copies aren't accepted for purposes like establishing citizenship, or getting passports, etc.