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Trying to confirm a Death

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

KiwiJoy

KiwiJoy Report 2 Dec 2010 22:40

Hi Sylvia,

Just thought I'd let you know that I've tried searching for Jacob Edward's birth, both under Vivers and Vevers, 3 years either side of 1882 and Genes tell me there is nothing in there records!

Back to the drawing board...

Joy :-)

Madmeg

Madmeg Report 3 Dec 2010 00:02

There is nowt anywhere on Jacob. Beta search has made him up!!!

The objective of this exercise was to find the death of Bridget. We have thrown up whole cans of worms on the family. I think this has to be sorted somehow. How?

Well, I think you have to get the birth cert of James Toward

Total rubbish, what I said before about James. He is Toward. Here is the birth:

Births Dec 1881 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

VEVERS Toward Newcastle T. 10b 53

Get the cert, please. Pray that his mother is Sarah.

And his father William, as on his marriage cert.

Maybe he called himself James, cos he got fed up of spelling Toward to people.

Now, Flymo or the new Worx leafblower?

Meg

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 3 Dec 2010 01:32

Is there an Edward Vivers born ca 1882?

Just in case he was registered with only one name, but given a second at baptism ............... registrations are not updated when that happens, and it happens a lot!



sylvia

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 3 Dec 2010 01:42

birth registration

Births Dec 1881 (>99%)

VEVERS Toward Newcastle T. 10b 53

Baptism

name: Jacobus Edward Vivers
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 18 Jan 1882


I think it is the same baby!



I looked at the original of the registration on freebmd ....... it is a typed entry, and it was Toward.

I don't know about the baptism ........ but just look at the similarity of the names

ToWARD
EdWARD



how easy it would be for one to be mistaken for the other.

especially if the original handwriting was copperplate




Get that birth certificate, Joy ............... see if he really was registered as Toward or Edward!



sylvia

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 3 Dec 2010 01:48

You know what else???


Looking at the image of that 1891 Census

I really think that the surname is VEVRES

not Nevres

there is 9 years between Toward aged 9 and the baby Richard aged 5 months ........... which is the right difference for a second marriage



sylvia

KiwiJoy

KiwiJoy Report 3 Dec 2010 04:52

Hi Meg.

Well I have bit the bullet and sent off for Towards Birth Cert. I do hope it is the right one - can't find him on the 1891 Census. On his Marr. Cert he's down as James Toward Vevers. He went by the name of Toward though. I will have to wait for about 3 weeks before I get it in my hand. They said it would be mailed out by 9th Dec, so taking into account the X'mas holidays in between I'll be lucky if I get it before New Year!!
My X'mas cards got to the U.K. in a week, how can it be so slow coming to N.Z.?

(Still can't help you with the Christmas Present. We've got one that sucks and blows, but as I don't use it I can't tell you the name of it!)

Hi Sylvia

I started out by saying that I couldn't find my Vevers on the 1891 Census at all and I've just tried 10 different ways of spelling it? But I re-read all the posts and realised that I hadn't tried Nevies - and I found it!!
Now I'm all "at sixes and sevens"!!

I still can't get over Bridget being called Sarah though and I wonder why such a big gap between Toward and Richard? Maybe by 1991 Bridget had died and he'd got another woman pregnant, so she was living with him at the time? Or he got married to her and she died also? (That's something else to check on now.) I should look for a death of Richard too, as something must have happened in between then and when he got married to Margaret in 1898. Why oh why can't our ancestors have made things a little easier for us!!

Well, after all this excitement I must go and do something as mundane as making the Dinner, saying as how it's nearing 6pm.

Well once again thank you, thank you ladies, I honestly don't know how I would have got on without you both. I feel like laughing and crying at the same time right now.

Cheers. Joy :-)

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 3 Dec 2010 05:21

?????????????


Births Dec 1890 (>99%)

Vevers Richard Newcastle T. 10b 71


Deaths Sep 1893 (>99%)

Vevers Richard 2 Newcastle T. 10b 45



???

Deaths Dec 1892 (>99%)

Vevers Sarah 41 Newcastle T. 10b 54a


Sarah was 39 on the 1891 Census



sylvia

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 3 Dec 2010 05:27

I can't find a marriage for William and Sarah though




sylvia

KiwiJoy

KiwiJoy Report 3 Dec 2010 06:17

Hi Sylvia

Just popped back for a couple of minutes and saw your postings...

I'm "Gobsmacked". I was thinking that they may have both died together, but you've answered that question too. So she died before her son. I still can't get it in my head that she would be Bridget though. Why would she suddenly change her name from Bridget to Sarah after all those years? I wish I had Towards Birth Cert. in my hand right now!!
I have a funny feeling that maybe William and Sarah weren't married after all.
Looks like I'm going to have to invest in Richards Birth Cert, after the New Year.

I can go back and finish my cup of now and try and come to grips with what you've sent me - everything is going around in my mind!

Thanks yet again Sylvia you're a Star.

Cheers.

Joy :-)

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 3 Dec 2010 06:51

Hi Joy!


thanks


I don't think Bridget IS Sarah


I think Sarah is another person

............ the question is did she marry William, or were they just common law???



Maybe you need to get her death certificate ........... although English certificates don't tell you as much as Aussie or NZ ones do.

It won't necesssarily tell you the name of her spouse for example, and certainly not the names of her children or her parents.


The informant could be her husband ............ and it will tell you what she died of.




sylvia
x

jeannie

jeannie Report 3 Dec 2010 11:10

ever thought to look under her maiden name?

Deaths Dec 1897
Tarpey Bridget 49 Leeds 9b 272

KiwiJoy

KiwiJoy Report 3 Dec 2010 21:19

Hi Jeannie

Thanks for the above info.

I had seen that a while ago, but couldn't bring myself to understand why she should go all the way down to Leeds to die under her maiden name, especially when she had the rest of her Tarpey family still living in Carlisle, I would have thought she would have headed towards them, not away from them? Barring family disputes of course.

Also her husband William and the rest of her Children were still living with William, albeit with another woman & a 2yr child on 1891 Census. That would mean that Sarah had been living with William for at least 2 years before that, taking it back to 1889'ish. I know you can't bring logic into this, but it would seem a long time, (7 to 8 years), for Bridget to have been on her own, especially if she had MND and needed looking after.

I had thought she might have ended up in Gateshead Lunatic Asylum/Hospital, (which is much closer to home,) like her father before her, who also had MND, but I can't find her death to prove it...

Also Bridget was born c1850, so if she died in 1897 that would make her approx 47 yrs old. Now from my own family MND history, the onset is about age 48 and the average life expectancy after that is approx 5 to 10 years. So her dying at 47yrs old doesn't quite fit, if you see what I mean.

I'd be so happy if all the above was incorrect and I could put Bridget to bed, so to speak as I've been trying to find her for years now!!!

Hope I haven't waffled on for too long, just thought I should explain my reasoning. I would love to be proved wrong, so any help gratefully received...

Thanks once again Jeannie.

Cheers.

Joy :-)

Madmeg

Madmeg Report 3 Dec 2010 22:02

No I don't think Bridget is Sarah either, too much of a name change. But Toward and Edward? and James and Jacob? possibles.

I don't think it was just Catholics who used Latin.

Sylvia's found some really good stuff, well worth looking at closer.

The GRO are doing really well with certs at the moment - bet it arrives sooner than expected. We're all waiting to know the outcome!

The death of Sarah might be worth getting, too. I know it all costs money, but in the end it is worth knowing the truth.

Nobody's interested in my leaf blower. Christmas is coming, you know.

Love

Meg

KiwiJoy

KiwiJoy Report 4 Dec 2010 00:56

Hi Meg

I don't think it's Catholics that just use Latin either, it's just that the St. Marys in Clayton Street, Newcastle upon Tyne, that was mentioned is where my Step-Sister's funeral was held,and she was a Catholic.

I think I will have to pay out and get Richards Birth Cert too - once Toward's arrives that is. I'll see what that gives me and if necessary will get Sarah's also. (I hope Santa gives me some money for Christmas, it sure becomes an expensive time with 5x Grandchildren when you're on the pension.)
Everybody Ahhhh.

Cheers.

Joy :-)

Madmeg

Madmeg Report 4 Dec 2010 18:09

Yes, take it one at a time, otherwise you could go in the wrong direction. I know it's frustrating to have to wait. My 3 certs ordered on Tuesday for delivery 8th December came this morning (Saturday). Off to buy some more cos they raised more queries.

Meg

KiwiJoy

KiwiJoy Report 4 Dec 2010 18:52

Hi Meg

I'm so jealous - wish my Certs would come that quickly. Did you order yours by phone or on-line?

I've just ordered mine on-line this time, but to be honest I haven't noticed that my Certs have come any quicker when I've phoned them in. I'd rather get the order in by doing it on line than to have to wait until the office opens. The time difference between N.Z. and the U.K. is a real drag at times!!

Well, better go and start to make our breakfasts.

Cheers.

Joy :-)

Madmeg

Madmeg Report 4 Dec 2010 23:04

On line.

But I've just ordered my first cert from Oz, so maybe I am in cloud cuckooland!

Good luck.

Meg

Jooleh

Jooleh Report 4 Dec 2010 23:27

Hi., fascinating thread Joy. Looks like Sylvia has hit the nail on the head.

He was born Toward Vevers.

Baptised Jacobus Edward.Vevers

Married as

Marriages Dec 1901 (>99%)
VEVERS James Toward Newcastle T 10b 216

Presumably this is his son who sadly died:

Births Dec 1904 (>99%)
Vevers James Toward Newcastle T. 10b 28

Deaths Dec 1904 (>99%)
VEVERS James Toward 0 Newcastle T. 10b 18


And this info is from a site called Behind The Name:

"JACOBUS

Gender: Masculine

Usage: Dutch, Late Roman

Pronounced: yah-KO-bus (Dutch) [key]
Latin form of JACOB, still used in Dutch.

The English names Jacob and James derive from the same source, with James coming from Latin Iacomus, a later variant of Iacobus. Unlike English, many languages do not have separate spellings for the two names."

It looks like the name Toward is intentional so perhaps the baptism is the record with an error i.e Edward instead of Toward?

Julie

KiwiJoy

KiwiJoy Report 5 Dec 2010 04:04

Hi Julie

Yes, I've been extremely lucky with all the people that have helped me try and solve my problem...

Although he was born Toward Vevers, he is James Toward Vevers on his Marr. Cert. as you said. Both he and my Nanna both went by their middle names, he Toward and she Ethel. Got quite a surprise when I found out her name was Mary Ethel!

I knew about their son James Toward Vevers and his death, so sad.

I'm just having a bit giggle to myself imagining an English Vicar being told at the Font that the Name is Toward - in a "Geordie" Accent - and mistaking it for Edward. Could sound very much alike...

Thanks for the explanation of the Name. Honestly I never cease to be amazed by the knowledge you all have. I feel as if I'm barely out of the shell with what I know!!

Thanks again.

Cheers Joy :-)


KiwiJoy

KiwiJoy Report 6 Dec 2010 02:03

To Sylvia and Meg,

Just had a look on FreeBMD and think I may have found William and Sarah's marriage!!

There is a William Vevers married to either a Sarah Jane Grayson or an Anne Spurling? The marriage took place in Wetherby though, which I think is in Yorkshire?

The marriage date was was Sept 1890, so it would fit. I think that once I have Sarah's Death Cert it may give me her Maiden Name, which would confirm the marriage.

Meg, did you ever hear back from the person on Ancestry who you thought could be related via the Tarpey line?

Well I'm going to see if I can glean anything from the "Unknown" Deaths, re. Bridget Tarpey now - keep your fingers crossed for me.

Joy :-)