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1861 Census - James Rattle's Mother (New Query)

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JannieAnnie Report 30 Oct 2012 11:59

Is anyone able to decipher the occupation and place of birth shown on the Census image for James Rattle (second person down on the page) please?

Here is the 1861 reference:

Piece: 391
Folio: 18
Page: 41
Registration District: Rotherhithe
Civil Parish: Rotherhithe
Municipal Borough:
Address: 9, Park Terrace, Rotherhithe County: London, Surrey

I think birthplace might be Bermondsey but cannot find him on the 1851 Census to compare and there is a James (b1825) on the 1841 Census but he is a Bethnal Green birth/Labourer. I want to make sure I am trailing the correct person.

Thank you for any occupation suggestions


brummiejan Report 30 Oct 2012 12:06

Is this him? Not 2nd person though!

1861 England Census

Name: James Rattler
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1827
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Isabella Rattler
Gender: Male
Where born: Limehouse, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Rotherhithe
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Registration district: Rotherhithe
Sub-registration district: Rotherhithe

James Rattler 34
Isabella Rattler 33
Isabella Rattler 10
Susan Rattler 7
Julia Rattler 5
Elizabeth Rattler 3


brummiejan Report 30 Oct 2012 12:08

Soory, I see, 2nd person on image. Blimey, I see what you mean.


brummiejan Report 30 Oct 2012 12:09

1851 England Census

Name: James Ruttle
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1825
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Isabella Ruttle
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Limehouse, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Mile End Old Town
County/Island: Middlesex

Registration district: Stepney
Sub-registration district: Mile End Old Town Lower

James Ruttle 26
Isabella Ruttle 25


brummiejan Report 30 Oct 2012 12:10

Just a labourer 1851 unfortunately!


JannieAnnie Report 30 Oct 2012 12:17

Yes they are the pages I am finding (I think) on FMP, shown as Rattle - and sorry yes 2nd person on the image. I would have expected 'Labourer' but the 1861 looks like a far more interesting occupation - one guess I had included a couple of 'z' in the middle of the first word and something to do with Beekeeping in the second - - think I was just desperate at that point.


brummiejan Report 30 Oct 2012 12:27

I can't read it, but sometimes just having a random stab at this kind of thing starts us off! What about this as a starting point - 'supply packer'?
Can't see them anywhere 1871, can you?


JannieAnnie Report 30 Oct 2012 12:33

Supply Packer is good - sounds like something a labourer could do - I haven't found them on 1871, but I know James was dead by May 1874 - not established his year of death yet as just making a start on him.

EDIT: Just looked at the image again and can see 'Limehouse' as where he was born, so that ties it nicely to the Bethnal Green James Rattle


brummiejan Report 30 Oct 2012 12:42

Have you looked at the occupation of the person above? 2nd word looks the same to me. Trying to find what that 1st letter is by comparing other entries at the moment.
- might it be an H?


JannieAnnie Report 30 Oct 2012 12:45

Yes I did try that as often the same, will try pulling up more pages and try again. Just had a look - and the end of the second word looks like 'man' and on the previous image the person called Nash looks like a 'Deckman'.

Off to pull up Nash transcription............

EDIT: Just checked Joseph Nash and his wife Caroline - they are both shown as occupation 3 dots as well!


Choccy Report 30 Oct 2012 13:04

In 1851 Caroline Nash is a Hemp Dresser, which looks like her occupation in 1861.

I think James Rattle looks like he has the same occupation (Hemp Dresser) - it's just that the 'crossed out' occupation of Isabella makes it difficult to read.

Am I just making it fit!


JannieAnnie Report 30 Oct 2012 13:08


I was just about to post to say that it must be something that men and women would do - and both Nashes were not so young - so I like Hemp Dresser, wonder if it was easy work - compared to other jobs

Thank you


KathleenBell Report 30 Oct 2012 13:33

I also think his occupation looks like Hemp Dresser. Could his birthplace be Limehouse?

I've been checking through Genuki's list of place names in Middlesex and that's the nearest I can find.

I think the enumerator needs to go back to school and learn how to write!!

Kath. x


JannieAnnie Report 30 Oct 2012 13:42

Just had a look on this site

and there is this reference

Hackler A person in the linen trade, who separated the coarse part of flax or hemp with a hackle, an instrument with teeth.

KathleenBell: Yes, I think Limehouse is the best possibility and also as his wife and girls were born Stepney that is all close by. As for the Enumerator - I agree.

Brummiejan: You thought the second word might start with an H ? So a Hackler / Hatcheler / Heckeler would fit.


GlitterBaby Report 30 Oct 2012 14:13

On the baptism for Isabella he is a labourer

Susan - she is transcribed as RETTLE - and again labourer

Perhaps you might find baptisms for the other kids


JannieAnnie Report 30 Oct 2012 14:29

GlitterBaby: Thank you, yes I don't think he probably got much higher in his career than labouring, it makes sense, which is why the 1861 looked a bit interesting!

I think I have found another birth (James b 1862 and d 1866) while trying to find James (1825 or 1827) in 1871 Census, so will have a look at the births/baptisms for the four girls.

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 30 Oct 2012 14:57

Fathers forenames:John
Fathers occupation:Shipwright
Mothers forenames:Susannah
Birth date:21/01/1825
Location of church:Limehouse
Parish:St Anne
Church address:Commercial Road
Entry No:1046
Source Ref:X097/275
Transcriber Note:
Original Note:
Record source:Docklands Ancestors

(not sure, just adding!)

Chris :)


JannieAnnie Report 30 Oct 2012 15:10

Chris, Hello

Yes that seems to be him - I have found a James Rattle death in 1874 (aged 49) which makes his an 1825 birth, Limehouse makes sense from the 1861 Census (I looked at it again) and ties in with the 1851 Census with a James Rattle born 1825 (in Bethnal Green) and living with a Susannah Rattle aged 40 - so presume his mother. So I think that proves your find.

Thank you.


JannieAnnie Report 31 Oct 2012 12:39

Thank you all for your input.

I have now located different Census records for various Rattles across various years and they tie up with each other so can build on that information.

Thank you


JannieAnnie Report 25 Sep 2013 16:10

I am tangling with my Rattles again!

Is my research sound please? Also can anyone find Susannah (c1798) in 1861 and 1871 please?

James on the 1861 Census is my linchpin, so to speak, I believe I have his baptism (1825 Docklands Ancestors) showing his father as John a Shipwright and his mother Susannah.

Now I believe I have found John and Susannah's marriage in 1818 - Susannah is shown as Susan Agace. I think John had died before 1841 as he is not on the 1841 Census (Digby Street, Bethnal Green) with Susannah and six children PLUS I find Susannah remarrying in 1844 to a James Cotton. However, in 1851 she is with 4 of her 6 children in Mile End - one had married - James my linchpin married in 1850 - and her eldest, also Susannah, may have died (found a death in Bethnal Green June 1844 Qtr). Three of the others then married - 2 at the end of 1851 and a third in 1853.

That left Susannah (c1798) and her firstborn son - John, shown as blind in 1851 - together. I have so yet found them in 1861 and 1871. I think I have found her death in Bethnal Green - as Susan Rattle aged 80 in 1877 ( no idea what happened to Mr Cotton!)

Is anyone able to spot where they are please?