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Bits of a Puzzle

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

JannieAnnie

JannieAnnie Report 29 Jul 2013 14:08


Good Afternoon,

I have Joseph French (possibly Joseph John) who married Louisa Savage and I now want to move back a bit further with him and his father (and mother) please.

On the marriage on 10 January 1859 Joseph is 'Full Age', his father is shown as John French (Coppersmith). Census records show his birth year as 1838 (except 1851 which shows as 1837) so not much hope for any Civil Registration evidence. In 1841 Census, Grove Street, St. George, Tower Hamlets his mother is Mary (1805) - apparently according to some other trees a Mary Ann Clifton - however on the 1851 'Mary' seems to have lost 20 years - aged 30 with a 20 year old daughter (living at 3 Matilda Street, St George in the East), plus children aged 5, 16 and 14.

So - I have tried searching baptism records for Joseph (John) French c1838 - over a range of years, so far nothing - not unusual for me; have looked tentatively at GRO birth records (unlikely) - can anyone see what I might have missed please?

Also - what do you think about Mary (mother) - is the 1841 and 1851 the same 'Mary' with a transcription error in 1851 or has his father remarried another Mary? Other trees only show John (father) with one marriage / wife but I am not sure........

Any help gratefully received, thank you.

J-A

KempinaPartyhat

KempinaPartyhat Report 29 Jul 2013 14:19

Great info Thank you

Dont worry about datyes to much approx is the normal

As for the Mary ....I had the same thing ...it turned out in the 10 years between census mary 1 died and was replaced by mary2 .....both turned out to be Maryann!

will take a look for anything which may help

Is all this the LOndon area?

KempinaPartyhat

KempinaPartyhat Report 29 Jul 2013 14:24


England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Joseph French
Name:

Joseph French
Date of Registration:

Oct-Nov-Dec 1838
Registration District:

Camberwell
Inferred County:

London
Volume:4

Page:145

Could this be him?

KempinaPartyhat

KempinaPartyhat Report 29 Jul 2013 14:38

This MAY confirm his name was Joseph john as I think this may be his child


London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Joseph John French
Name:

Joseph John French
Record Type:

Baptism
Baptism Date:

12 Jun 1859
Father's Name:
Joseph John French

Mother's Name:

Louisa French
Parish or Poor Law Union:

St George in the East
Borough:

Tower Hamlets
Register Type:
Parish Registers

KathleenBell

KathleenBell Report 29 Jul 2013 14:39

Although Mary is transcribed as aged 30 on the 1851 census the image has her as 50.

There is a son called John and another called Joseph on this census record.

Kath. x

brummiejan

brummiejan Report 29 Jul 2013 14:40

The age for the 2nd Mary could be 50 or 30, hard to tell - I would guess most likely the same person?
Jan

KathleenBell

KathleenBell Report 29 Jul 2013 14:46

Is this Joseph in the 1861 census with his wife names as Lucy rather than Louisa:-

1861 census transcription details for: 6, Langdale Street, St George East

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG09
Piece: 277
Folio: 96
Page: 8
Reg. District: St George-In-The-East
Sub District: 1 St Mary
Parish: St George East
Enum. District: 17
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:

Address: 6, Langdale Street, St George East
County: London

Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born

FRENCH, Joseph Head Married M 23 1838 Umbrella Frame Maker
St George E, Middlesex
FRENCH, Lucy Wife Married F 22 1839 Umbrella Frame Maker Wife
St George, Middlesex
FRENCH, Joseph Son M 2 1859
St George E, Middlesex

Kath. x

brummiejan

brummiejan Report 29 Jul 2013 14:46

I stand corre4cted - this is presumably his 2nd marriage? Occ coppersmith:

Name: John French
Age: Full Age
Spouse Name: Mary Ann Charles
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 4 Aug 1850
Parish: St Bride Fleet Street
Borough: City of London
Father Name: James French
Spouse Father Name: John Brooker
Register Type: Parish Register

Mary is a widow - just says 'of full age'.

Jan

KathleenBell

KathleenBell Report 29 Jul 2013 14:47

1871 census transcription details for: Morgan St, St George, East

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG10
Piece: 532
Folio: 22
Page: 38
Reg. District: St George in the East
Sub District: St Mary, Whitechapel
Parish: St George, East
Enum. District: 13
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:

Address: Morgan St, St George, East
County: London, Middlesex

Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born

FRENCH, Joseph Head M 33 1838 Middlesex
FRENCH, Louisa Wife F 31 1840 Middlesex
FRENCH, Joseph John Son M 11 1860 Middlesex
FRENCH, Henry T Son M 9 1862 Middlesex
FRENCH, Louisa A Daughter F 4 1867 Middlesex
FRENCH, Selina A Daughter F 4 1867 Middlesex
FRENCH, George W Son M 2 1869 Middlesex
FRENCH, Mary A Daughter F 0 1871 Middlesex
SAVAGE, Joseph Father-In-Law M 62 1809 Surrey
SAVAGE, Robert Wife's Brother M 19 1852 Middlesex

Kath. x

KempinaPartyhat

KempinaPartyhat Report 29 Jul 2013 14:49

I just looked at that census and its hard to tell ...

KathleenBell

KathleenBell Report 29 Jul 2013 14:51

As KempinaPartyhat said earlier this looks a good bet for Joseph's birth:-

Name: FRENCH, Joseph
Registration district: Camberwell
County: London
Year of registration: 1838
Quarter of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Mother's maiden name: Not available before 1911 Q3
Volume no: 4
Page no: 145

Kath. x

KempinaPartyhat

KempinaPartyhat Report 29 Jul 2013 14:52

I dont think that 1861 census is right coz the child Joseph was born 1839 and this census shows one born 1859

KathleenBell

KathleenBell Report 29 Jul 2013 14:53

Joseph in the 1881 census? :-

1881 census transcription details for: 59, Morgan St, St George In The East

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG11
Piece: 452
Folio: 109
Page: 47
Reg. District: St George in the East
Sub District: St Mary
Parish: St George in the East
Enum. District:
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:

Address: 59, Morgan St, St George In The East
County: London, Middlesex

Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born

FRENCH, Joseph Head Married M 43 1838 Dock
FRENCH, Louisa Wife Married F 41 1840
FRENCH, Henry Son Single M 10 1871
FRENCH, Louisa Daughter Single F ?
FRENCH, Selina Daughter Single F ?
FRENCH, George Son Single M ?
FRENCH, Mary Ann Daughter Single F ?
FRENCH, Hugh Son Single M ?
FRENCH, Alfred Son Single M ?

Kath. x

KempinaPartyhat

KempinaPartyhat Report 29 Jul 2013 14:54

Someone says his death is 1892 prehaps all certificates will give you enough info to be sure its him!

KathleenBell

KathleenBell Report 29 Jul 2013 14:56

In the 1861 census it is Joseph born 1838/9 with a child of his own born 1859. Joseph born c. 1838/9 has the same occupation as in the 1871 census - umberella frame maker.

Kath. x

KempinaPartyhat

KempinaPartyhat Report 29 Jul 2013 14:56

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915
about Joseph French
Name:

Joseph French



Estimated Birth Year:

abt 1838
Date of Registration:

Jan-Feb-Mar 1892
Age at Death:

54

Registration District:

St George in the East
Inferred County:

London
Volume:

1c
Page:
351

JannieAnnie

JannieAnnie Report 29 Jul 2013 14:58



Sorry everyone - my computer just froze! Been trying to get back on.

So yes - all in London - mainly East End - that Camberwell looks possible, but did not feel it likely because everyone is usually shown as Middlesex / St George in the East on Census records.

All those other Census records are correct - and for some reason Louisa was Lucy on one of them, but definitely them.

I like the second marriage for John to another Mary (Mary Ann) - because I struggled to see if it was 30 or 50 on the 1851 - it was just the 20 year old daughter and a 5 year old and the order of the two boys John and Joseph on the 1851 made me suspect there was as KempinaPartyhat suggested Mary1 and Mary2. So that answers my Mary query.

J-A

KempinaPartyhat

KempinaPartyhat Report 29 Jul 2013 14:59


Louisa Jane Savage1839 – Wife to Joseph 1839
His children
Joseph John French1859 –
Henry Thomas French1862 –
Louisa Ann French1867 –
Selina A French1867 –
George W French1869 –
Mary A French1871 –
Alfred French1881 –

KathleenBell

KathleenBell Report 29 Jul 2013 15:00

1891 census:-

1891 census transcription details for: 59, Morgan Street, St George In The East, St George East

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG12
Piece: 285
Folio: 79
Page: 35
Reg. District: St George in the East
Sub District: St George North
Parish: St George in the East
Enum. District: 9
Ecclesiastical District: St John
City/Municipal Borough: St George East

Address: 59, Morgan Street, St George In The East, St George East
County: London

Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born

FRENCH, Joseph Head Married M 53 1838 Dock Labourer
St George in the East, London
FRENCH, Louisa Wife Married F 50 1841
St George in the East, London
FRENCH, Mary A Daughter Single F 19 1872 Tailoress
St George in the East, London
FRENCH, Thomas H Son Single M 17 1874 Carman
St George in the East, London
FRENCH, Selina Daughter Single F 24 1867 General Servant
St George in the East, London
WHITE, Robert Relation Single M 23 1868 Carman
St George in the East, London
BAILEY, Samuel Relation Single M 17 1874 Carman
St George in the East, London
BRYAN, William Relation Single M 15 1876 Van Boy
St George in the East, London
FRENCH, Alfred Son Single M 10 1881 Scholar
St George in the East, London

They seemed to live at Morgan Street for a long time.

Kath. x

KempinaPartyhat

KempinaPartyhat Report 29 Jul 2013 15:04

Just one point .....9 otehr people are doing this tree or person but not a single one has come to the conclusion that John French married twice

But you m,ay be right so dont take other peoples research as the truth