Genealogy Chat

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1330326

You wrote at one stage................

..all of their children on various census' are listed as scholars.........doesn't tie up with being a hawker ???!

'scholar' means a child who is attending school

Hi Michelle

I think you need to wait for the certificates to make sure you are following the correct Cooper line !

The Samuel who married Patricia Smith gives his father as Matthias as does Vandelow who married Patricia's sister Amy.

Matthias managed to elude the census takers until 1871 which does not help !

The trees on Ancestry need to be taken with caution as they seem to be copying and an error on one is on others,namely Eliza Lee as Matthias' wife,she is born in 1760-1863 which would make her 83 when Samuel was born :-S

I found these other baptisms which I think are Matthias and Eliza but sometimes entered as Matthew and Elizabeth

07 Mar 1830-John Walton on the Hill Sy
09 Sep 1832-Mary Banstead Sy
21 Aug 1834-Louisa Banstead Sy
01 Sep 1837-Francis Cobham Sy
07 Nov 1841-Matthew Banstead Sy
1843-Samuel
18 Apr 1844-Eliza Banstead Sy
gap
25 Jun 1854-Vandelow West Molesey Sy
29 Jun 1856-Perron West Molesey Sy
23 May 1858-Oliver West Molesey
24 Apr 1860-Alfred St Martin Epsom Sy ) gypsys staying
24 Apr 1860-Job St Martin Epsom Sy ) on Epsom Common

Hmmmm I'm not sure if my Samuel Cooper is the son of Matthias although I am sure that there is a connection some where along the line!? Here is the info I have re Samuel and Samuel snr:

Samuel Cooper 28/5/1848 (married Patience nee Smith 1872)....Gentys mum and dad.
Father: Samuel Cooper lists Liss Hampshire as his place of birth on the census, born 1822
Mother: Eliza Cooper ...confusingly her maiden name was Cooper father James mother Messilah nee Hill.

Other children:
George Henry: 1846
Samuel:1848
Charles Cooper: 1850
Alfred:1853
Eliza Maria:1855
Alice or Allace:1857
James:1859
Samuel Edward:1861
Arthur:1865

Samuel is living at home with his parents aged 3 on the 1851 census but has disappeared on the 1861 ....ran away maybe?

The plot thickens...... :-S

Hmmmm I'm not sure if my Samuel Cooper is the son of Matthias although I am sure that there is a connection some where along the line!? Here is the info I have re Samuel and Samuel snr:

Samuel Cooper 28/5/1848 (married Patience nee Smith 1872)....Gentys mum and dad.
Father: Samuel Cooper lists Liss Hampshire as his place of birth on the census, born 1822
Mother: Eliza Cooper ...confusingly her maiden name was Cooper father James mother Messilah nee Hill.

Other children:
George Henry: 1846
Samuel:1848
Charles Cooper: 1850
Alfred:1853
Eliza Maria:1855
Alice or Allace:1857
James:1859
Samuel Edward:1861
Arthur:1865

Samuel is living at home with his parents aged 3 on the 1851 census but has disappeared on the 1861 ....ran away maybe?

The plot thickens...... :-S

Thank you so so much <3 have literally just settled down with a glass of wine to 'do some more' :-) x

Some more ?
Baptism at Winkfield Berkshire
18 Jan 1843-Samuel Cooper s Matthias gypsy & Eliza James
( so now you have the his mothers name,with no formal marriage that is a plus !!)

Baptisms for Samuel and Patience (no occupation for father)
29 Jun 1873-Mary at Preston Sussex
15 Nov 1874-Gentilla at St Peters Brighton
28 Aug 1880-Patience at Hurstmonceux
31 Dec 1882-George at St Mary's Brighton

Found this

Marriage 24 June 1872 at Steyning Sussex
Samuel COOPER-29-bach -hawker s Matthias Cooper hawker
Patience SMITH-25 d of George Smith hawker

:-)

Michelle

I have been "doing" my DIL tree for quite awhile.

She comes from a long line of "travellers/hawkers/gypsies" on her mothers side and has Coopers (there are a lot of them !) the New Forest line.

The further back you go the more challenging it gets as there is not always a formal marriage, the children did not get registered but they did -usually- baptise them , but as they were travellers the baptisms are not always where you expect to find them !

They use the same forenames and as you go back they may use different surnames--my DIL Coopers are also called Hughes !

I have found the Romany sites very useful

Thank you all x I have taken all of your advice on board. Unfortunately my grandparents are no longer alive and my fathers side have little knowledge about the powell/ Cooper side of the family.....no dates no names at all so this whole thing has been really difficult. When I found Gentilia as Sarah's mum that was the first time they had ever heard their great grandmothers name. I made the fatal mistake initially of going full pelt down the Matthias cooper line but I got myself in such a muddle and suddenly it was all just a big headache and didn't seerm to make much sense, so I have started right back at the beginning. I have ordered the marriage certificate for Genty to Alfred and her birth certificate. Samuel and Patience Cooper are shown as her parents married in 1872 and its here that my headache starts ....their fathers are shown as hawkers. When I have looked further back (family search) Samuel Cooper (born 1848, Brighton) parents are shown as Samuel Cooper (ag labourer) born Hampshire 1822 and Eliza Cooper born 1821....all of their children on various census' are listed as scholars.........doesn't tie up with being a hawker ???!!!arrggghhh wine here I come :-S :-S Michelle xxx

According to various trees.
Gentilia Cooper born 1874 Brighton Married Frederick Deacons.
========================
Marriages Sep 1896
Cooper Gentilla Sevenoaks 2a 1300
Deacons Frederick Sevenoaks 2a 1300
===========================
England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2007 about Gentilia Deacons
Name: Gentilia Deacons
Birth Date: 26 Oct 1874
Date of Registration: Sep 1970
Age at Death: 95
Registration District: Haringey
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 5b
Page: 1812
Also on index as Cooper

Thank you all so so much for your help x

Samuel Cooper was the son of Matthias Cooper, hawker and Patience was the daughter of George Smith, hawker. Married 24 June 1872 Steyning.

Samuel's brother Vanslow married Patience's sister Amy 21 sept 1873 Ticehurst.


http://romanygenes.com/#/certs-bmd-c-marriage/4534214602

An article on http://romanygenes.com/#/usa-our-folki/4526320503


Old GENTILLIA COOPER was my Great Aunt she was famous Gypsy Fortune teller of Devil's Dyke near Brighton England I pass on her blessing " The Great Lord be with you "




 It would seem from the above story that her Aunt Eliza could be Eliza wife of Matthias Cooper “The Royal rat catcher “ as Gentilla Cooper of the Devil’s Dyke fame was Mattys sister that is certain, therefore Reginald ? (but in other articles she refers to herself as Patience) would have been his brothers daughter(unless a sisters daughter but I think not) but the problem is that often as was the custom many older relatives were called aunt or uncle when in fact they were not ! it was a term of respect used for the elder members of the tribe ,that they were related is definite but at this moment with out more information I am unsure wether the grandfather she mentions is Elisha (Lusha)Cooper who was in fact Matthias uncle his father’s brother, and so would make Patience Mattys 2nd cousin (I think!) but if there was a large age gap then to call him Uncle would also be acceptable!! So If Gypsy Jack was her uncle ,then Elisha was her grandfather. Yet another possibility is that the grandfather she mentions could of course be her maternal grandfather?. If this was the case then Matty would have been her uncle and the uncle she says brought her to America could be Mattys brother Francis who is mentioned in Charles Leland book ,where Matty recounts to Leland that “my brother Francis has been several times to America and made a lot of money.



http://romanygenes.com/#/windsor-coopers-usa/4529028522

And check out the 2 Romany sites

Romanygenes and Romanyjib

Hi Michelle and welcome to the community boards.


It seems there are several members on this site who have a Gentilia Cooper in their tree, but none for the year you mention - they seem to be from Wiltshire.
It may be worth checking though. Simply click on Search above and then on Search All Members Trees and add her details. It may be an idea to use variations of the spelling of her name too.....




As Michelle is a new poster, I will send a friendly message on how to return to her thread. :-)

Sign in to Mundia.com
There are several trees for your family.
Not sure that the one born Brighton is yours.

1911 census


Person: POWELL, Genty Address: 51 Pearscroft Road

POWELL, Alfred Head Married M 39 1872 Labour Fulhan Gasworks Scotland Glasgow VIEW
POWELL, Genty Wife Married19 years F 40 1871 Work At Home Feltham VIEW
POWELL, Alfred Son Single M 19 1892 Umemployed Battersea VIEW
POWELL, Christina Daughter Single F 17 1894 Laundry Learner Fulham VIEW
POWELL, May Daughter F 14 1897 Out Of Work Fulham VIEW
POWELL, Hester Daughter F 12 1899 School Fulham VIEW
POWELL, Albert Son M 9 1902 School Fulham VIEW
POWELL, Sarah Daughter F 7 1904 School Fulham VIEW
POWELL, Clara Daughter F 4 1907 Fulham VIEW
POWELL, Janey Daughter F 1 1910 Fulham

Marriage

Name: POWELL, Alfred
Registration district: Bromley
County: Kent
Year of registration: 1892
Quarter of registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Spouse's last name Not available before 1912
Volume no: [?] 2A Page no: [?] 735
On same Page...................

COOPER, Gentiltia

Marriage

Name: SMITH, Patience
Registration district: Steyning
County: Sussex
Year of registration: 1872
Quarter of registration: Apr-May-Jun
Spouse's last name Not available before 1912
Volume no: 2B
Page no: 409

Samuel Cooper is on same Page