Genealogy Chat

Sheryl - I don't see what you're seeing. The GRO index entries I quoted from http://www.freebmd.org.uk/ don't rely on the date of birth, but do say which quarter the birth was registered in. One normally has 6 weeks in England to rego a birth. There actually is no time limit, but the older it is, the more adminstrative hoops you have to jump thru, until it becomes impossible as all the potential qualified informants are dead.

Anyways, there's nothing in my post to contradict all 6 kids being born on Christmas Day. Here's a couple of examples of other kids:

Baptism: 11 Jan 1860 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
George Christmas Yates - [Child] of Jabez Yates & Elizabeth
Born: 25 Dec 1859
Abode: Finch St.
Occupation: Soda Water Maker
Baptised by: W. R. Duncan, Curate
Register: Baptisms 1859 - 1860, Page 146, Entry 1164
Source: LDS Film 1656561

Baptism: 23 Mar 1868 St Paul, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
William Christmas Evans - [Child] of Edward Evans & Mary Ann
Born: 25 Dec 1867
Abode: Edmund Street
Occupation: Draper
Baptised by: R. J. Fairclough Curate of Liverpool
Register: Baptisms 1864 - 1885, Page 26, Entry 206
Source: LDS Film 1656373

Births Mar 1860 (>99%)
YATES George Christmas Liverpool 8b 204 Scan available - click to view

Births Mar 1868 (>99%)
Evans William Christmas Liverpool 8b 122

My niece was born just before Xmas, but not rego'ed until the first week of Jan, so she too appears in the volume for the March quarter of the year following her birth. It's sort of similar to bank statements - they've nothing to do with when you wrote out the checque - only when it got cashed.

The Elizabeth born in 1898 is my best guess at the correct Elizabeth, I do not know for sure if she is the right Elizabeth. I have ordered the marriage certificate to help clear this up. It would be very exciting if I was wrong and the correct Elizabeth is in fact the one above.

Your opening post had Elizabeth born in 1898, but the Elizabeth buried with Reuben was born about 1883.

Have you any explanation for the conflicting dates?

The above Elizabeth Ann Cleworth was living across the road from what is now my Mum's house when she passed away. It's council run sheltered accommodation and always has been as far as I'm aware. I really hope it's my Elizabeth Cleworth, what a coincidence it would be!!

Thanks so much everyone, I have been following the census entries and have found most of those quoted above.

I can see that it seems the marriage produced 6 children but on closer inspection the date's make it impossible for all 6 to be Elizabeth's children, perhaps a couple of them are niece's or nephews. More searching needed there.

I have ordered the marriage certificate which will provide some certainty, thank you very much for all the help :)

Just to add, if this is Reuben's burial, then his wife died in 1968 and was buried in the same grave.....

Burial: 18 May 1947 Christ Church, Walmsley, Lancashire, England
Reuben Cleworth -
Age: 71 yrs
Abode: 5 Old Globe Egerton
Grave: No. 166 Ex. 'A'
Buried by: C. R. Shawcross Asst. Curate
Register: Burials 1943 - 1955, Page 35, Entry 279
Source: Register at Manchester Library



Burial: 4 Mar 1968 Christ Church, Walmsley, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Ann Cleworth -
Age: 85 years
Abode: 49 The Crescent Bromley Cross
Grave: 166 EXA
Buried by: J.W. Sutcliffe Vicar of St. Luke Halliwell
Register: Burials 1955 - 1975, Page 71, Entry 561
Source: Register at Manchester Library


She was 85 when she died in 1968, so that would make her year of birth 1882 - 1883.


Burials from Lancashire Online Parish Clerks..... http://www.lan-opc.org.uk

Using http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years:
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
1844 CLEWORTH Rhuben Atherton Wigan & Leigh MAKIN ATH/5/289
1846 CLEWORTH Simeon Atherton Wigan & Leigh MAKIN ATH/6/291
1848 CLEWORTH Levi Atherton Wigan & Leigh MAKIN ATH/8/90
1850 CLEWORTH Israel Atherton Wigan & Leigh MAKIN ATH/9/328
1853 CLEWORTH William Atherton Wigan & Leigh MAKIN ATH/11/124
1854 CLEWORTH Ellen Atherton Wigan & Leigh MAKIN ATH/12/370

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1844
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
CLEWORTH John MAKIN Ann Leigh St. Mary's Wigan & Leigh C10L/1/427

Using http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/
Marriage: 15 Mar 1844 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancs.
John Cleworth - Full age Nail Maker Bachelor of Atherton
Ann Makin - (X), Full age Spinster of Atherton
Groom's Father: John Cleworth, Weaver
Bride's Father: William Makin, deceased, Collier
Witness: Richd. Aldred; Samuel Whittle
Married by Banns by: Edwin L. Blinkinsopp Curate
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1845, Page 214, Entry 427
Source: LDS Film 1885652

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1871
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
CLEWORTH Israel HOWARD Hannah Leigh Register Office or Registrar Attended Wigan & Leigh ROL/20/89


1881 England Census
Civil Parish: Atherton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 9 Park St
Registration District: Leigh
Sub-registration District: Atherton
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Piece: 3809 Folio: 122 Page Number: 30

John Cleworth 72 Atherton, Lancashire, England Head M Labourer At A Cotton Mill
Ann Cleworth 56 Atherton, Lancashire, England Wife M
Levi Cleworth 32 Atherton, Lancashire, England Son Bolt Maker
Israel Cleworth 30 Atherton, Lancashire, England Son W Bolt Maker
Ann Cleworth 7 Atherton, Lancashire, England Granddaughter Scholar
Rueben Cleworth 5 Atherton, Lancashire, England Grandson Scholar
John Cleworth 4 Atherton, Lancashire, England Grandson Scholar


1861 England Census
Civil Parish: Atherton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: Park View
Registration District: Leigh
Sub-registration District: Atherton
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Household Schedule Number: 192
Piece: 2805 Folio: 22 Page Number: 37

John Cleworth 51 Atherton, Lancashire, England Head M Throstle ?? Forger
Ann Cleworth 56 Atherton, Lancashire, England Wife M Silk Weaver
Reuben Cleworth 14 Atherton, Lancashire, England Son U Bolt maker ap
Levi Cleworth 12 Atherton, Lancashire, England Son Bolt maker ap
Israel Cleworth 10 Atherton, Lancashire, England Son Bolt maker ap
William Cleworth 8 Atherton, Lancashire, England Son Bolt maker ap
Ellen Cleworth 6 Atherton, Lancashire, England Daughter Bolt maker ap
Joseph Cleworth 56 Atherton, Lancashire, England Brother W Silk Weaver

This mob is easier to trace - also, right now, Ancestry are giving free access to their UK census records - they say:
All our UK census records will be available to search for free from 00:00 BST on 23rd August 2013 until 23:59 BST on 26th August 2013. To view these records you will need to register for free with Ancestry.co.uk with your name and email address.

I suggest you follow your Cleworth mob thru the censuses, downloading their census records as you find them. You could also do the same for all the potential Eliz's - put them in a folder for now, and move them out when you know whch is yours, but keep the rest - they might be her rellies for all anyone knows right now.

Thanks, Rose and mgnv.
I did mean that the birth originally quoted was in doubt as far as I could see.

For INFO

1911 census


Person: CLEWORTH, Reuben Address: 20 Edditch Grove Tonge Bolton

CLEWORTH, Israel Head Widower M 59 1852 Ironfoundry Blacksmith Atherton Near Bolton Lancashire VIEW
CLEWORTH, Reuben Son Single M 35 1876 Striker For Blacksmith Atherton Near Bolton Lancashire VIEW
CLEWORTH, Levi Son Single M 22 1889 Tinplate Workers Labourer Bolton Lancashire VIEW
CLEWORTH, John Son Married M 34 1877 Machine Fitter Atherton Near Bolton Lancashire VIEW
CLEWORTH, Amelia Wife Of John Married12 years F 32 1879 Houseduties Wigan Lancashire VIEW
CLEWORTH, Mary Alice Daughter F 11 1900 School Atherton Near Bolton Lancashire VIEW
CLEWORTH, Hannah Daughter F 9 1902 School Atherton Near Bolton Lancashire VIEW
CLEWORTH, Sarah Daughter F 6 1905 School Atherton Near Bolton Lancashire VIEW
CLEWORTH, John Son M 3 1908 Bolton Lancashire VIEW
CLEWORTH, Levi Boarder Single M 62 1849 Iron Nut And Bold Maker Atherton Lancashire

The Reuben Cleworth marriage cert would be the most useful document to get, as it is the only 'certainty'

BTW........that marriage would appear to have produced 6 children

Wow, so much information. Thanks everyone.

Sadly, my living relatives are unable to help me.

I haven't seen/ordered any certs yet as I was unsure which would be best to go for to get the information I need. I could be ordering certs for the wrong Elizabeth and being misled, spending a fortune too!

I have my grandparents marriage certificate - Annie Cleworth was my Gran, her father is named as Reuben Cleworth and her sister Ethel was a witness.

I shall have a look through all the information everyone has posted and have a look at getting/seeing a copy of some of the certs you have all suggested.

Thank you.

And then you have the mis-transcriptions where it could have been

Totthill or Tothill

Just to add to the mix....

I agree with Patchem - I can't see how Sheryl can distinguish between the 3 Bolton Elizabeth Tootill's patchem found without seeing Eliz on a census.

I can see it with a census - if my adult kids asked me abt their g grandparents, even before I started on my family tree, I knew the name of at least one sib of each of my grandparents, and even the same for my wife's maternal grandparents - I'd met the majority of the ones I could name - so these would be findable on a census. I also knew if each of my (and my wife's) grandparents died as a widow/widower or married. I can even figure from family stories that my own 4 g grans died as widows.

I think you definitely need to see her m.cert for Reuben - this would name her dad, and the witnesses are often sibs or sibs-in-law of the couple.

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1916
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
TOOTILL Elizabeth A CLEWORTH Reuben Bradshaw, St Maxentius Bolton 22/2/219

You could buy the cert from the GRO, or maybe see an image - if it's handy, give Bolton main library a call - they could tell you if they've got images of this parish register, or else, where it's stored.

Sheryl, I don't know what you have seen, but since all your datings are GRO quarterly index dates, I'm guessing you've not seen the actual certs. On the other hand, I don't know what you know from your family. I would feel uncomfortable abt following Eliz back without further info.

Since the are at least 89 y old, I'll post them as it gives a limit at old end for any death:

Births Dec 1917 (>99%)
CLEWORTH Reuben Tootill Bolton 8c 616

Births Dec 1918 (>99%)
Cleworth Nelly Tootill Bolton 8c 627

Births Dec 1919 (>99%)
Cleworth Annie Tootill Bolton 8c 867

Births Mar 1921 (>99%)
CLEWORTH Ethel Tootill Bolton 8c 849

Births Dec 1921 (>99%)
Cleworth Emily Tootill Bolton 8c 842

Births Mar 1924 (>99%)
Cleworth Frank Tootill Bolton 8c 754

These were the only Cleworth-Toot* births post-1915 (checked on Ancestry). Also there were no Bolton Toot*-Toot* births 1911q3 thru 1916.

When posters start quoting registration quarters it invariably means they don't have the relevant certificates and that means we can't trust the birth information listed.

Rose

As per OP's post............

Elizabeth Tootill born Q3 1898 in Bolton,

I think we need to know which Elizabeth Tootill/Tootell we are actually looking for.

From free bmd:
Births Mar 1896
TOOTELL Elizabeth Blackburn 8e 450
TOOTELL Elizabeth Ann Bolton 8c 457
Births Sep 1898
TOOTILL Elizabeth Bolton 8c 358
Births Jun 1899
TOOTELL Elizabeth Annie Chorley 8e 526
Births Sep 1900
Tootell Elizabeth Alice Bolton 8c 535

Baptism: 25 Apr 1894 St Thomas, Dixon Green, Farnworth, Lancashire, England
John Tootell - [Child] of John Tootell & Rachel
Born: 8 Aug 1892
Abode: 51 Lee St.
Occupation: Collier
Baptised by: T. Austin
Register: Baptisms 1887 - 1911, Page 62, Entry 490
Source: Microfilm of register at Manchester Library

Baptism: 25 Apr 1894 St Thomas, Dixon Green, Farnworth, Lancashire, England
James Tootell - [Child] of John Tootell & Rachel
Born: 28 Dec 1886
Abode: 51 Lee St.
Occupation: Collier
Baptised by: T. Austin
Register: Baptisms 1887 - 1911, Page 62, Entry 489
Source: Microfilm of register at Manchester Library

Baptism: 25 Apr 1894 St Thomas, Dixon Green, Farnworth, Lancashire, England
Lilly Tootell - [Child] of John Tootell & Rachel
Born: 18 Jun 1889
Abode: 51 Lee St.
Occupation: Collier
Baptised by: T. Austin
Register: Baptisms 1887 - 1911, Page 61, Entry 488
Source: Microfilm of register at Manchester Library

Baptism: 19 Feb 1905 St James, New Bury, Farnworth, Lancashire, England
Betsy Tootill - [Child] of John Tootill & Rachel
Born: 10 Mar 1895
Abode: 26 Barton Road
Occupation: Coalminer
Baptised by: George Holden
Register: Baptisms 1904 - 1911, Page 11, Entry 98
Source: Microfilm at Manchester Central Library

Baptism: 19 Feb 1905 St James, New Bury, Farnworth, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Tootill - [Child] of John Tootill & Rachel
Born: 7 Jun 1898
Abode: 26 Barton Road
Occupation: Coalminer
Baptised by: George Holden
Register: Baptisms 1904 - 1911, Page 11, Entry 99
Source: Microfilm at Manchester Central Library

Baptism: 2 Jul 1882 St Mark, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Sarah Alice Tootell - Daughter of John Tootell & Rachel
Abode: Brick St
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: J. G. Doman, Vicar
Register: Baptisms 1866 - 1882, Page 194, Entry 1545
Source: LDS Film 1966169

Baptism: 6 Jun 1886 Holy Trinity, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Thomas Tootill - Son of John Tootill & Rachel
Abode: 31 Lees St. Moses Gate
Occupation: Collier
Baptised by: Charles Lowe Vicar
Register: Baptisms 1884 - 1890, Page 125, Entry 993
Source: LDS Film 1966124

Baptism: 1 Nov 1889 Egerton Street Wesleyan Methodist, Moses Gate, Farnworth, Lancashire, England
Lily Tootell - [Child] of John Tootell & Rachel
Born: 18 Jun 1889
Abode: 51 Lee St Moses Gate
Source: Church Registers transcribed by Bolton Genealogy Gro

Marriage........1881

WALSH Rachel TOOTELL John Bolton, St Bartholomew Bolton 60/1/10

1891 census


Person: TOOTILL, Rachel Address: 51, Lee Street, Farnworth

TOOTILL, John Head Married M 29 1862 Collier
Bolton, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTILL, Rachel Wife Married F 30 1861
Bolton, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTILL, Sarah A Daughter Single F 8 1883 Scholar
Bolton, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTILL, Thomas Son Single M 5 1886 Scholar
Farnworth, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTILL, James Son Single M 4 1887
Farnworth, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTILL, Lilly Daughter Single F 2 1889
Farnworth, Lancashire

1901 census


Person: TOOTEL, Elizabeth Address: 26, Barton Road, Farnworth

TOOTEL, John Head Married M 40 1861 Coal Miner Hewer
Bolton, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTEL, Rachael Wife Married F 43 1858
Bolton, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTEL, Sarah A Daughter Single F 18 1883 Confectioners Assistant
Bolton, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTEL, Thomas Son Single M 15 1886 Coal Miners Wagoner
Farnworth, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTEL, James Son Single M 14 1887 Coal Miners Wagoner
Farnworth, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTEL, Lily Daughter Single F 11 1890
Farnworth, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTEL, John Son Single M 8 1893
Farnworth, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTEL, Betsy Daughter Single F 6 1895
Farnworth, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTEL, Elizabeth Daughter Single F 2 1899
Farnworth, Lancashire