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one child, two birth certs - 1884 & 1887

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Pippa (Phillipa)

Pippa (Phillipa) Report 13 Dec 2013 21:33

my great uncle, the one who we've found out suicided by shooting himself in a Station Hotel in Queensland (where his ghost still loiters apparently) we had thought was the son of my great grandmother and greatgrandfather as we have the birth certificate from 1887 with all their names on it. I wanted to see if the child whose delivery had caused the death of my ggrandfather's previous wife had lived, and have found that the same name as my guncle was born to the previous marriage at the time that mother died in childbirth, late 1884.

It seems that there were two birth certificates for the same child, and that the second is false, in effect meaning that my ggrandma adopted her husband's child from a previous marriage. Has anyone else had a similar experience in looking into their tree? How do people think they hid the fact that this child was in fact 2 years older than his new birth cert stated?

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it Report 13 Dec 2013 21:39

It was often the norm to name the next same sex child after one that died . Often names ran in the family so would get reused if a child didn't survive.

I have instances in my own tree where this occurred


AnnCardiff Report 13 Dec 2013 21:41

can you delete your posting off General Chat please - not good to have two postings


MarieCeleste Report 13 Dec 2013 21:52

Hi Pippa - as Shirley says, the recycling of names was not at all uncommon.

Did you ever actually find a possible death for the baby born 1884?

If you wish to give names and locations we'll see if there's anything further to be found.


Reggie Report 13 Dec 2013 22:44

No such thing as adoption in that era...........

If a birth cert was issued......a birth had occurred.

Look for a death for the first child with the give no indication that you have done that

Did all of this take place in Australia?

The comments above refer to the UK.............................I know nothing whatsoever about Australian laws etc


jax Report 13 Dec 2013 23:48

This is also on facebook with the same replies

My gt gt grandparents had three children they named Edward

Pippa (Phillipa)

Pippa (Phillipa) Report 14 Dec 2013 07:43

Thank you all for your replies. I thought it wouldn't be possible that they would give the same name to two consecutive children so this is very helpful.

I will now, as you suggest, look into the possible death of the 'first' Frederick John Green born Hackney 1884 to Helena Beatrice Green (who died of epileptic fits and convulsions from that childbirth), and Frederick Ralph Green, who was in Liverpool until 1882 (but left there and his first wife Martha Munro Green for reasons unknown; they lost a two year old son in 1882 to meningitis). Great uncle FJG left for Australia decades later.

Really appreciate you all sharing your experiences.



Pippa (Phillipa)

Pippa (Phillipa) Report 14 Dec 2013 08:20

Have now looked and cannot see any death record for Frederick John Green, born Hackney 1884. Not sure where that leaves us.

There was also a Gertrude Green born in the same quarter. FJG's father already had a daughter Gertrude May in Liverpool, whom he had left along with his first wife, but who survived childhood. Out of interest, does anyone think it is possible he gave the same name to a second child, especially if that child died at birth or soon after (no death record for that child either that I can find).



Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it Report 14 Dec 2013 08:33

Well ! I was confused when looking at part of my tree to see two boys with exactly the same Christian name on the 1881 census .one aged 4 and the other aged 2 thought it was an error so ignored it at fiirst Subsequent census coming online I discovered it was correct .they named one James Joseph and the other James Herbert and on a daily basis each was known by their second name. Both survived too into adults and married etc.

It may just be they did use the same name twice .

Pippa (Phillipa)

Pippa (Phillipa) Report 14 Dec 2013 09:02

That is surprising Shirley. Thanks for sharing that info. Pippa

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it Report 14 Dec 2013 09:16

Have you actually got both certs to see if they are the same family ?


MarieCeleste Report 14 Dec 2013 10:05

My grandfather was called William Patrick, one of his brothers was Kieran William. Both were known as Billy in later life - they've been fun to research.


MarieCeleste Report 14 Dec 2013 10:23

Pippa, you probably already have this, but I'm trying to get the family straight in my head. Is this the correct family in 1891?

GREEN, Fred R Head Married M 35 1856 Draper Assistant Liverpool, Lancashire
GREEN, Eliza M Wife Married F 27 1864 Fulham, Middlesex
GREEN, Fred F Son M 4 1887 Hornsey, Middlesex
GREEN, Catherine M Daughter F 2 1889 Norwood, Surrey

Piece: 594 Folio: 37 Page: 67
Registration District: Croydon
Civil Parish: Croydon Municipal Borough: Croydon
Address: 87, Clifton Road, Croydon County: Surrey

Young Fred's middle initial definitely looks like J on the image.


MarieCeleste Report 14 Dec 2013 10:29

And the marriage of that couple:

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Frederick Ralph Green - Draper
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Age: 29
Spouse Name: Eliza Machell Blogg
Spouse Age: 22
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 27 Apr 1886
Parish: Walham Green St John
Borough: Hammersmith and Fulham
Father Name: William Green (deceased) - Pawnbroker
Spouse Father: John Blogg - Engineer.
Register Type: Parish Register

Fred a widower of 72 mildmay Road, St Pauls, Canonbury.

Eliza a spinster of 4 Peterborough Road, Fulham.

Witnesses: J Chesterfield and M A Forsdick.


MarieCeleste Report 14 Dec 2013 10:45

On the birth certificate for the Frederick John born 1884, what does it give for Helena Beatrice's maiden name? I suspect this might be her:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
Name: Helena Beatrice Kerby Gould
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1863
Registration District: St George Hanover Square
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1a
Page: 228

- the full range of names and the birth year match the 1884 death.

Might be worth checking if he was with any of her family in later census?

Pippa (Phillipa)

Pippa (Phillipa) Report 14 Dec 2013 10:54

Thanks Marie. Yes we have all 3 marriage certs (1. Martha Wright Munro, in Liverpool, 2. Helena Beatrice Kerby Gould, Middx, 3. my ggrandma Eliza Machell Blogg, Fulham) and birth certs. Also have Helena's death certificate which states that she died from epileptic convulsions during childbirth. So, just trying to establish if the child FJG died at birth or soon after.

Thanks Shirley, have both birth certs. Same father, different wives.




MarieCeleste Report 14 Dec 2013 12:28

I guess this announcement would relate to the birth of Gertrude May?

Publication:Liverpool Mercury
Publication date:Saturday 11 May 1878

From the Births section:

GREEN May 10, at 111, Kensington, the wife of Frederick Ralph Green, of a daughter.


BatMansDaughter Report 14 Dec 2013 13:58

I cant see this death registered yet,

Name: Frederick Green
Record Type: Death
Estimated Death Date: 1885
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884
Parish or Poor Law Union: Shoreditch
Borough: Hackney
Register Type: Parish Register

Died of "intestine disease"
Aged 14 months.
Died 31.07.1885 at 4am.


BatMansDaughter Report 14 Dec 2013 14:01

This must be the registration,

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Deaths Sep 1885 (>99%)

GREEN Frederick 1 Shoreditch 1c 93

Pippa (Phillipa)

Pippa (Phillipa) Report 14 Dec 2013 14:51

Thanks BatMans Daughter. I don't think this is right. The area fits, but as he was born in Oct 1884 that makes him 9 months old in July 1885, not 14 months.

Thanks anyway.