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Hi trying to get backfurther to find more about John Bird dob aprox 1823 born St Lukes Middlesex he was a wood sawer in 1861 He had 2 sisters that I know of Hannah b approx 1818 and Sarah a fancy brush maker 1828 -1842 died St Thomas Hosp. Southwark re City of London Burials. Their mother is Catherine no idea of fathers name but cant find them apart from later census information .can anyone help maybe with the parish records. John married a Caroline Ashwell Brown dob around 1820 in June 1843 they later moved to Marylebone and then Somers Town Middlesex. Any help with either side would be great thanks.

birth: 10 Jan 1821
residence: London, England
parents: Willm. Brown, Charlotte

record title: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
name: Caroline Ashfield Brown
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 11 Feb 1821
baptism/christening place: WELD CHAPEL,SOUTHGATE,LONDON,ENGLAND
birth date: 10 Jan 1821
father's name: Willm. Brown
mother's name: Charlotte
indexing project (batch) number: C04263-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 585394

Found this marriage on Ancestry

Name: Caroline Ashwell Brown
Spouse: James Lumsden
Birth: abt 1821
Marriage: 30 May 1843 - Westminster, Middlesex

This seems a more likely marriage for your John

Marriage
Gray's Inn Road Holy Trinity
(Trinity Church, St Andrew, Holborn)
7 Aug 1842
John Bird
Caroline German (or Gorman)
John was living at Kirby Road, Hatton Garden and his occupation was a Sawyer . His father Edmund Bird, also a Sawyer.
Caroline was living at Pancras Road and her father was Thomas whose occupation is shown as “Gardiner”.

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about John Bird
Name: John Bird
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1825
Baptism Date: 3 Jul 1825
Father's name: Edmund Bird sawyer
Mother's name: Elizabeth Bird
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Pancras
Borough: Camden

Above John but mother's name is not Catherine.

Sisters

Match quality: 2 out of 5 Maria Bird 21 Nov 1819 Edmund Bird,
Elizabeth Bird St Pancras Camden

Sarah Hulks Bird 21 Dec 1839 Edmund Bird,
Elizabeth Halks Bird St Pancras Old St Pancras Camden

Where did you get your information about John's marriage and mother's name please?

Although not correctly transcribed (the volume reference is incomplete), the GRO index gives Caroline's surname as GORMAN.

Ok here is the marriage.

John Bird 1843 Marylebone (1837-1901) London, Middlesex
Caroline Ashwell Brown 1843 Marylebone (1837-1901) London, Middlesex
Anette Casson 1843 Marylebone (1837-1901) London, Middlesex
Anne Casson 1843 Marylebone (1837-1901) London, Middlesex
Ann Cross 1843 Marylebone (1837-1901) London, Middlesex
Sarah Hay Currie 1843 Marylebone (1837-1901) London, Middlesex
Frederick J Hunt 1843 Marylebone (1837-1901) London, Middlesex
Mansel Mortymer 1843 Marylebone (1837-1901) London, Middlesex

Volume: 1
Page: 179

James Bird,20 lampmaker, married Ann Cross 19. Fathers William, button maker and Thomas, silversmith.

Frederick Hunt married Sarah Hay Currie.

Robert Butt married Maria Wheatley.

James Lumsden, 30 carpenter married Caroline Ashwell Brown 22. Fathers John, carrier and Thomas, gardener.

Mansel Mortymer married Annette Casson.
From the certificates on Ancestry.

Sorry if I confused anyone!

This is the marriage I thought more likely:

Marriages Sep 1842
BIRD John Holborn 2 49
BONFIELD Eliza Holborn 2 49
CLIFTON Lydia Holborn 2 49
COLE George Holborn 2 49
KNIGHT Thomas Holborn 2 49
MILLER William Holborn 2 49
SHEEN Catherine Holborn 2 49

Marriages Sep 1842
GORMAN Caroline Holborn 2 _9

Looking at the actual scan (on Ancestry) the reference is clearly “2 49”.

This baptism record gives birthdate of 25 November 1823, address Seymour Court, father a sawyer.

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about John Bird
Name: John Bird
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1825
Baptism Date: 3 Jul 1825
Father's name: Edmund Bird
Mother's name: Elizabeth Bird
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Pancras
Borough: Camden

This baptism of Sarah gives birthdate 12 March 1827, address Phillips Buildings, father a sawyer.

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Sarah Hulks Bird
Name: Sarah Hulks Bird
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1839
Baptism Date: 21 Dec 1839
Father's name: Edmund Bird
Mother's name: Elizabeth Halks Bird
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Pancras Old St Pancras
Borough: Camden

I am getting rather confused. I assume this is definitely the family you are looking for.
Do you have any birth certificates for the children that give mother's maiden name?

BIRD, John Head Married M 27 1824 Sawyer
St Pancras
Middlesex VIEW
BIRD, Caroline Wife Married F 27 1824
St Pancras
Middlesex VIEW
BIRD, Caroline Daughter F 8 1843
St Pancras
Middlesex VIEW
BIRD, John Son M 6 1845 Scholar
Shoreditch
Middlesex VIEW
BIRD, Hannah Daughter F 4 1847 Scholar
Shoreditch
Middlesex VIEW
BIRD, Elizabeth Daughter F 2 1849 Scholar
Shoreditch
Middlesex VIEW
BIRD, Thomas Son M 0 (3 MOS) 1851
Shoreditch
Middlesex VIEW
RG number:
HO107 Piece:
1534 Folio:
270 Page:
65

Registration District:
Shoreditch Sub District:
Saint Leonards Enumeration District:
8 Ecclesiastical Parish:

Civil Parish:
Saint Leonard Shoreditch Municipal Borough:
Tower Hamlets Address:
1, Elizabeth Place, William Street, Saint Leonard Shoreditch, Tower Hamlets County:
Middlesex

I'm sure that the marriage that Rotals posted earlier to Caroline Gorman (or German) is the correct one as he was a sawyer with a father Edmund who was a sawyer.

I don't think that the 1819 birth of Maria is the same family, the father was a butcher.

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Sophia Lumsdon
Name: Sophia Lumsdon
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1852
Baptism Date: 9 Jun 1852
Father's name: James Lumsdon carpenter of Goldsmiths Place
Mother's name: Caroline Ashwell Lumsdon
Parish or Poor Law Union: Islington St Mary
Borough: Islington


This is her family though James has lost 10 years off his age.



LUMSDON, James Head Married M 31 1820 Carpenter
Lanton
Northumberland VIEW
LUMSDON, Caroline Wife Married F 30 1821
Southgate
Middlesex VIEW
LUMSDON, John Son M 7 1844 Scholar
Southgate
Middlesex VIEW
LUMSDON, James Son M 5 1846 Scholar
Islington
Middlesex VIEW
LUMSDON, Ann Daughter F 3 1848
Islington
Middlesex VIEW
LUMSDON, Sophia Daughter F 0 (1 MOS) 1851
Islington
Middlesex VIEW
RG number:
HO107 Piece:
1501 Folio:
552 Page:
20

Registration District:
Islington Sub District:
Islington East Enumeration District:
19 Ecclesiastical Parish:
Saint Mary

Civil Parish:
Islington Municipal Borough:
Finsbury Address:
11, Goldsmiths Place, Islington, Finsbury County:
Middlesex

Hi Margaret,

I agree with you as to the marriage but kcoflondon has John's mother down as Catherine and sisters Hannah c1818 and Sarah1828-1842, so I was wondering where that came from as the John that has been found has Elizabeth as a mother and sister Sarah 1839.
Also is it John Bird or Caroline Ashwell Brown that they are interested in?

Liz

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Maria Bird
Name: Maria Bird
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1819
Baptism Date: 21 Nov 1819
Father's name: Edmund Bird
Mother's name: Elizabeth Bird
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Pancras
Borough: Camden

It is very faint but I think father's occupation is sawyer.

I think you have really gone astray on your tree, kc, and should start from scratch.

John Bird did not marry Caroline Ashwell Brown. Alviegal has proved that she married James Lumsdon.

John Bird married Caroline Gorman (or German).

John's parents were Edmund and Elizabeth. (You said the mother was Catherine.)

Oops, I made a mistake, Alviegal. (I do it now and then)

You're correct Maria's father was a sawyer. I was thinking of another one that I discounted because the father was a butcher.

No bother Margaret, happens to us all. Will come back to this when kc has hopefully returned.
Happy New Year to you all.

Liz

Thank you all so much for your replies, sorry family turned up and havnt had chance to get back on line before now. I can see your point will now go over how and where got info that put me on this track. So thats my new year taken care of. Will sort this mess out and again thank you for all the help and when sorted will let youknow how it went, Happy New Year to you all.
Kim